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You don't necessarily expect people who install carpet to be good at interior design, but you do expect them to be able to follow the specifications that the customer/designer has come up with.
Why should programmers be responsible for the UI design?
-c
#define O 0.05
#define I(c) putchar(c)
main(){int I(int);double l[6];char lO[5];for(*(lO+1)=0;*(lO+1)<'2';I(0x0A),(*(l+5))=-25*O+((*(lO+1)
)++)*O)for((*(lO+2))=0;(*(lO+2))<'2';(*(l+4))=-40.*O+((*(lO+2))++)*O){for((*(l))=(*(l+1))=0,
*(lO)=1;++*(lO)&&(((*(l+2))=((*(l))*(*(l))))+((*(l+3))=((*(l+1))*(*(l+1))))<4.);(*(l+1))=(*(
l))*(*(l+1))+(*(l+5))+(*(l+1))*(*(l)),(*(l))=((*(l+2))-(*(l+3)))+(*(l+4)));I((*(lO)?42:0x20));}}
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The vast majority of my working life has been spent in small software houses where programmers have had to do everything in the develoment processing from design to testing to writing the help.
Programmers shouldn't be responsible for UI design, but some times it is the most cost effective way of doing it. Of course more and more emphasis is being put on the UI nowadays, so software houses are starting to spend more time and money on usability issues.
Sometimes I miss the days when UI consisted of,
printf("Menu\n\n");
printf("1. Sales\n");
printf("2. Accounts\n");
printf("3. Exit\n");
key = getch();
Michael 
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Why should programmers be responsible for the UI design?
A programmer may not be entirely responsible for designing a UI, but they certainly shouldn't be irresponsible either. A hallmark of a good engineer is his/her ability to solve problems - including those encountered by users of their software.
don't necessarily expect people who install carpet to be good at interior design
The analogy is flawed, imho. I've never worked in an engineering team whose members could be compared to carpet installers, bricklayers, assembly line personnel, etc. (i.e. those employed in mechanical activities). Perhaps it's the nature of the work I've been doing, but I've always been in teams who are deeply invested in the final product, like cooks, artists and musicians.
Btw, this isn't a flame, just my view.
/ravi
"There is always one more bug..."
http://www.ravib.com
ravib@ravib.com
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It depends where you work.
I have the opportunity to see both extremes of this. I've worked in small shops, where programmers are responsible to do everything, from making graphics to coding. Also I worked in big shops, where programmers are treated as no more than plumbers. In the latter, I saw a fairly large group of UI design folks responsible of all those design issues, not only specifying the dialog / form layouts, but also knitty - gritty stuff, like pixel sizes of bitmaps, icons etc. Often I saw graphics used by developers were thrown out by those gods citing UI conformance problem, no matter how cool those grpahics looked.
// Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++
http://www.capitolsoft.com
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This may be true to a degree, but it fails to address a couple of issues
1/ Programmers are also users. Anyone who TESTS their code, must use their own interface and therefore should surely be able to spot if it's an absolute dog.
2/ The rise of the PC in terms of relative ease of use, and I'd suggest to no small degree publicity regarding free pr0n on the net has led to an explosion of users. Adult Ed runs nonstop courses for people wanting to use a PC, but that does not mean that these people have ANY idea, or have got over their technofear. No UI will make up for the sort of people I find myself dealing with at times, people who cannot be convinced that no sequence of key presses in my app will blow up their PC.
Christian
After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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Maybe more programmers should read things like this.
- Wilka
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>VB programmers are actually probably better at creating usable UI's than >hard core C++ programmers as VB is more focused on UI.
I've always found the vast majority of VB programs to have poor UI. I blame the form editor as it doesn't create controls (such as buttons) to the standard window size. I find the VC++ dialog editor to be far superior for creating interfaces.
I won't even mention VB's crap menu editor.
Of course my VB development experience is limited, so I may be missing some of the editor's finer points.
Michael
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BEGIN GROSS GENERALIZATION:
I can always spot a VB application. The UI looks really funny and does some really strange non-standard stuff.
END GROSS GENERALIZATION;
Tim Smith
Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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F1 cars are incredible examples of automotive genius, but they are an absolute b*tch to drive. The same would happen if a C++ coder was left to do the UI.
It doesn't occur to you that 'C++ coders can't do UI' is as bigoted as 'all VB programmers are monkeys' ?
Christian
After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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> VB programmers are actually probably better at creating usable UI's
That is an unbelievably huge crock of sh*t, Paul, even for you.
There are some programmers that are great at coming up with a decent UI, some that aren't as good, some that are average, and some that suck. I think it would be closer to the mark to say an equal number of VB and C++ programmers exist in each group (within the context of their level of UI-ability).
As far as "robust code" behind the UI, that's a given, but it's beyond the scope of the survey question.
This discussion should never have degraded to the point of arguing over what language is better for UI design. The best language is ultimately the one you're paid to use.
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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That is an unbelievably huge crock of sh*t, Paul, even for you.
Lets not make this personal, John 
Also I don't think it is a crock of sh*t, I would not have posted it if I believed it to be wrong.
I say it because VB is inherently a more UI focused tool than C++. Tell me this; If two graphic designers came to you for a job. One said he uses Adobe Photoshop and the other says he uses Jasc Paint Shop Pro. I will take a bet you will instantly put the first designer on a higher pedestal than the second as there choice of tools reflects their level of experience and talent.
If someone said to you "hey I am writing an OS in VB" you would just laugh your head off. If they said "hey I am writing an OS in C++" you would probably give them the thumbs up and respect them.
VB focuses on the UI a lot more. The first thing you are presented with in VB is a bleeding form designer, a UI designer! MS hype VB's UI creation abilities no end.
Not only that but I have heard it over and over again on CP that VB is a great prototyping and UI design tool.
There are some programmers that are great at coming up with a decent UI, some that aren't as good, some that are average, and some that suck.
No sh*t John. There are great drivers, mediocre drivers and crap drivers. Great drivers tend to drive great cars. UI designers do not tend to use C++ for coming up with great UI's. Good UI designers do not have their heads in reams of pointers, structs, objects etc. etc. etc. They think of people, colours, shapes, forms etc. I would say a great UI designer probably is not a hot shot programmer.
Have a look at websites created by programmers, then have a look at websites created by designers. The first lot look terrible but work well. The second lot look incredible but often don't work that well. I agree there are some people who are gifted in programming and design but they don't come along everyday.
Anyways my belief stands that on average a VB programmer will have better UI skills than a C++ programmer while a C++ programmers are on average better programmers.
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
"The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
"In other words, the developer is dealing with an elephant, the accountant is dealing with a bunny rabbit." by Stan Shannon - 16/10/2001
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> I say it because VB is inherently a more UI focused tool than C++.
It only makes *creating* the UI easier. It does NOT promote good design.
> Tell me this; If two graphic designers came to you for a job. One said he
> uses Adobe Photoshop and the other says he uses Jasc Paint Shop Pro. I will
> take a bet you will instantly put the first designer on a higher pedestal
> than the second as there choice of tools reflects their level of experience
> and talent.
It depends on which program my company is using. This particular example is irrelevant to the discussion.
> If someone said to you "hey I am writing an OS in VB" you would just laugh
> your head off. If they said "hey I am writing an OS in C++" you would
> probably give them the thumbs up and respect them.
No, I'd ask them why they don't find something more constructive to do.
> VB focuses on the UI a lot more. The first thing you are presented with in
> VB is a bleeding form designer, a UI designer! MS hype VB's UI creation
> abilities no end.
It only makes *creating* the UI easier. It does NOT promote good design.
> Not only that but I have heard it over and over again on CP that VB is a
> great prototyping and UI design tool.
That's because it makes it easier to create a UI that can be quickly modified. Once the prototype is done, the real programmers take over and move it to C++.
>> There are some programmers that are great at coming up with a decent UI,
>> some that aren't as good, some that are average, and some that suck.
>
> No sh*t John. There are great drivers, mediocre drivers and crap drivers.
> Great drivers tend to drive great cars.
I'm a great driver (raced a 1965 Mustang Fastback in vintage trans am and slalom events, and even turned a couple hundred laps in a Winston Cup stockcar). I drive a Buick Park Avenue Ultra (a great car), but it's not because I'm a great driver - it's because I'm a great UI designer and programmer, and I command a salary that lets me afford a $40,000 luxury sedan.
> UI designers do not tend to use C++ for coming up with great UI's. Good UI
> designers do not have their heads in reams of pointers, structs, objects
> etc. etc. etc. They think of people, colours, shapes, forms etc.
That's what I've been trying to drill into your head this whole time. But if they want a decent UI implemented, they call in real programmers (the C++ guys).
> I would say a great UI designer probably is not a hot shot programmer.
Then your view of the world is even narrower than mine.
> Have a look at websites created by programmers, then have a look at
> websites created by designers.
I'm a programmer, and I think my website looks peachy (and it works).
> The first lot look terrible but work well. The second lot look incredible
> but often don't work that well.
>
> I agree there are some people who are gifted in programming and design but
> they don't come along everyday.
So, the people that have hired me as a programmer are part of that lucky few who have seen greatness.
> Anyways my belief stands that on average a VB programmer will have better
> UI skills than a C++ programmer...
That's still a crock of sh*t, Paul.
> ...while a C++ programmers are on average better programmers.
But this is oh-so-true.
The whole point you're missing is that the user interface is completely based on the target audience. If your target audience is a bunch of propeller heads, you can stick to the Windows standard for interface components, and beyond logical placement of menu items and use of dialog boxes, you don't have much to worry about. I personally CANNOT STAND fluffy dialog boxes or non-standard user interfaces because then, things become hard to find. WinAMP is a good example of a fluffy design that doesn' do ANYTHING for the usability of the program.
Finally, as a group, VB programmers are neither more or less adept at designing a decent UI than are C++ programmers.
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Paul, I'm open minded. Could you provide an example of an application with what you consider to be a very good VB UI? Something I could download and evaluate.
"But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument.
"Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01
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The best VB UI is one that doesn't look like it's been written in VB. I haven't seen many of those about, but there must be some surely.
Michael 
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Surely users getting dumber are a good thing? The more they come to rely on software we create to do their jobs, the more money and work for us programmers
Michael
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Michael
They might be pretty much dumb as users, but they don't seem to be dumb when it comes to paying us.
Nish
Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain
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Exactly how it should be!
We as developers should be striving for a world were using an app is second nature, easy as opening a door or as common as driving a car. We shouldn't complain when Jane Doe can't open a file because she does not know how to navigate a folder structure. We should rather figure out an easier and more intuitive way of getting to that file. (along that vein we should find an easier model than files and folders as it confuses the hell out of most users on first try).
I wonder if the first door knob maker had the same problems as us?
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
"The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
"In other words, the developer is dealing with an elephant, the accountant is dealing with a bunny rabbit." by Stan Shannon - 16/10/2001
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well said that man. We need to strive for software so simple that I don't get phone calls from my friends/relatives asking how to install the latest whatever.
Michael
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Exactly correct, Paul. Regardless of how intelligent your user group is, the UI should be designed to be as simple and intuitive as possible. The UI designer should always remember that no matter how great the cognitive resources of the user may be, the amount of time and effort necessary to figure out the UI, is time and effort not put into solving whatever the original problem was the user wanted the app to help them solve in the first place.
"But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument.
"Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01
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Hear, hear!
If only software engineering underwent the same QA as hardware engineering.
/ravi
"There is always one more bug..."
http://www.ravib.com
ravib@ravib.com
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seems like I got here first. Cause there is only one vote and that's mine.
But then the client for our current project has been making requests every week. Fresh requests.
In fact they played a role in the color scheme [it's partly a web appalication] Our design team was horrified with some of their requests, but we had to oblige the clients. One particularly horrifying request which we had to carry out was to change all 'save' buttons to a reddish color.
Then they insisted on verdana font for all the button text [which was actually okay], but it amazed us that a client insisted on something as trivial [maybe not trivial to them] as the button text font.
How about the rest of you guys?
Any similar clients?
Regards
Nish
Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain
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I'm always getting asked for buttons to be different colours. Probably because users think remembering a colour is easier than remembering button text.
Michael
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...it amazed us that a client insisted on something as trivial [maybe not trivial to them] as the button text font.
In my experience clients almost always insist on the trivial things.
I think it's usually because they are the ones their management can visualise - the really important stuff (e.g. behaviour and use cases) is "too technical" for them so they focus on the trivial. 
It's a control thing I guess. 
Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks."
- Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past  )
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One of the things I've noticed with our clients is that they feel they have to make changes otherwise their boss thinks they are useless. Thats why they change trivial things. They are too afraid to change something big, but afraid if they don't change anything they'll be deemed useless.
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These people aren't users. They're wannabe designers.
Surely you've tried to redirect them, using quotes and knowledge from the wide variety of UI design/human interaction books you have in your library, correct?
The real problem in the industry is that wannabe designers are getting dumber and dumber.
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