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1. The lounge is for the CodeProject community to discuss things of interest to the community, and as a place for the whole community to participate. It is, first and foremost, a respectful meeting and discussion area for those wishing to discuss the life of a Software developer.
The #1 rule is: Be respectful of others, of the site, and of the community as a whole.
2. Technical discussions are welcome, but if you need specific programming question answered please use Quick Answers[^], or to discussion your programming problem in depth use the programming forums[^]. We encourage technical discussion, but this is a general discussion forum, not a programming Q&A forum. Posts will be moved or deleted if they fit better elsewhere.
3. No sys-admin, networking, "how do I setup XYZ" questions. For those use the SysAdmin[^] or Hardware and Devices[^] forums.
4. No politics (including enviro-politics[^]), no sex, no religion. This is a community for software development. There are plenty of other sites that are far more appropriate for these discussions.
5. Nothing Not Safe For Work, nothing you would not want your wife/husband, your girlfriend/boyfriend, your mother or your kid sister seeing on your screen.
6. Any personal attacks, any spam, any advertising, any trolling, or any abuse of the rules will result in your account being removed.
7. Not everyone's first language is English. Be understanding.
Please respect the community and respect each other. We are of many cultures so remember that. Don't assume others understand you are joking, don't belittle anyone for taking offense or being thin skinned.
We are a community for software developers. Leave the egos at the door.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
modified 16-Sep-19 9:31am.
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To avoid an "Oi!", I decided to post it a little early. 
I will try to post it at 11:30 BST. I'm almost always up by then and will hold off so that the time is more predictable.
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Very early - it's still only 2021 in Wales ... 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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I try to avoid web work. It's just not my cup of tea. I don't like duck typing. I don't like scripting. I don't really like markup - it's too much typing.
But now I'm faced with the daunting task of shoehorning a "good enough" CSS processor onto an ESP32.
The trouble is, I don't know what constitutes good enough and the internet isn't giving up the goods on that where epubs are concerned.
The trouble is this - EPUB readers are typically running on relatively "fat", android capable devices and use a webkit browser component to display content.
I can't run webkit. I just can't. It's just not going to happen in the RAM and CPU that I have.
So far, I 've gotten away with wedging everything into a 512kB system (with 200kB reserved for the system) by streaming content directly from flash wherever possible rather than using RAM. I have 4MB of NVS flash for program and data, so I lean on it.
Streaming works great when you can do it but CSS presents a challenge.
CSS Selectors Reference - this is my Everest[^]
1. Clearly, I have to load the entire CSS content into some sort of hopefully compact, normalized data structures. I won't be able to stream because of the number of times I'd have to reparse from the beginning to implement the selection.
2. Aside from the selector challenges I have the issue of styles overriding other styles (for example if you have both class and style attributes. That means maybe? a stack of hashtables. I'm not sure if I can afford that?
3. I can't find a working subset of CSS that EPUB routinely expects, I think because everything just uses webkit. That means even if I solve 1 and 2, I have to ... i don't know, somehow figure out what subset of CSS I can reasonably get away with supporting, because supporting it all just isn't going to happen on a device like this.
4. This is where I wish I was a web developer. I don't know what most of these style attributes do. I don't understand the CSS box model. I don't know for example, why you might use padding instead of margins aside from being able to venture a guess. Every single thing I have to support I'm going to have to learn first.
This is daunting. By the time I'm done I suppose if I still have any of my sanity left I could expend it on doing web development for people, because after this I'll be a CSS and HTML expert. 
Real programmers use butterflies
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Margins are the space between elements, padding is the space within an element.
So you might have two label elements with different fonts using a margin to give them some horizontally separation, and vertical padding to, say, shift them vertically because you want them horizontal-center-aligned.
Of course, the nightmare that I always encounter is that not all style attributes work the same for elements, like centering and text alignment I think, which have sometimes, and sometimes not, to be handled by an outer div.
CSS is a nightmare. I doubt you'll have any sanity left. 
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That's why the middle "S" stands for "SNAFU" ... 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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If I granted your wish, I'd probably be looking for a job in a boys' choir. 
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honey the codewitch wrote: Wishing I was a web developer suddenly
May God have mercy on your soul... 
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Is a sea-cow shoplifter a Klepto-Manatee?
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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I'd be more concerned about a sea-bull in a china shop.
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You're making a crockery of this thread ...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Do I detect a ray of hope in this new grouper ToD themes? I porpoise we fin-ish this on a grand scale.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Holy mackerel! I don't like the shark of this thread, but I'm sure it will get the seal of approval from the admins.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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So I got an email from a potential client who wanted a quotation for some software.
Bit weird, called them, had a conversation on who they are, who I am, what I can do and what they want exactly.
I mean, this isn't like ordering a new TV, we're talking serious money and a long term commitment here.
Not to mention custom software, so I really need to know what they want me to write (they did send a functional design, but it never hurts to talk to the people behind it).
So anyway, I was able to send them a quotation and they immediately rejected it because they don't agree to my terms and conditions because they had their own conditions for suppliers.
They usually order mechanical parts and their conditions were geared (pun intended) towards parts suppliers.
Stuff like they're not responsible for damages and they can cancel orders when the delivery is late or when they want to change their order and the additional costs seem unreasonable to them...
Called them and said I can't agree to those terms since this is software were talking about, not mechanical parts.
Heck, my insurance won't even cover any damages if I agree to their terms.
We're now looking for conditions that work for both parties, so I'm hoping we can work it out and I get a new customer.
Did you ever get asked to work for a client on their conditions?
I can imagine it being standard in some industries, but I've never heard about it for software (unless you're a freelance contractor, in which case you practically always sign an employer's contract).
For the record, I'm not a freelance contractor, I take on the entire project, develop it in-house and deliver it when it's done (or in parts).
When it's done I deliver support and maintenance at an hourly rate (or fixed price if a change is big enough).
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The most common condition was a non-disclosure agreement. Most of these were OK, but some were too broad and had to be narrowed down, particularly if they wanted rights to software that you developed later, just because it could be seen as useful to their business.
A few expected there to be liability insurance. Most of these contracts are written by lawyers who try to cover every possibility, and then the contract gets used for everything, whether it makes sense or not. Get them to agree that liability is limited to the amount of the contract unless you do something malicious, like putting a back door in their software. And that disagreements must resolved through private arbitration, not government courts.
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My previous employer tried to get me to sign a non-compete agreement that was so broad that it wouldn't have allowed me to work as an IT professional in any industry. This was after I had been working there for over a decade and a half. I put it in a cross cut shredder.
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Sander Rossel wrote: Did you ever get asked to work for a client on their conditions?
It is the case with all government related customers... All big-money or full-of-self-importance customers I know of has this initial behavior, like they do not buy the product but you...
As story of my wife: They got a job with one of those customers (GOV). After they signed the customer told them, that they can not paint the product themselves, because there is a 'code' and they don't want to waste time on approving their facility, so they have to hand over the product for paint to an approved 3rd party - wife told them thay can go and f**** themselves - the painting is one of their trade secret...
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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It happens here with the Automotive industry, sort of. Suppliers can make a lot of money if they get a contract, but have to agree to strict SLAs and timelines for deliveries. Big fines are involved if the are late / can't supply and make the factory line stop.
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I talk them out of fixed bids and tell then to do hourly. I give an "end of day" status report and expect to always deliver something every few days. They can cancel anytime they feel there's no progress. They never do (in my case). Of course, you can cancel any time too (in writing).
Bottom line, keep them interested / motivated with updates and a stream of deliverables: scope document; design documents; prototypes; etc. The only thing you might regret is your quoted rate when they rave about you.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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If you need them as a new client... you will need to clarify a lot.
If you do well without them... keep going, this might end being a big headache and your mental sanity is worthier than the bill they might pay you.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Evil dealings of Ian Apple? (12)
[clue] What kind of apple? [/clue]
@OriginalGriff - two points about the rules on your member page...
Your link to the Terrorgraph's "how to" page now hits a paywall.
Also, the time seems to have crept from 0900 UTC to 0900 London time.
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994. So does this signature. me, 2012
modified 9hrs 5mins ago.
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Time fixed - I moved it to "London time" since most of us have to deal with summer time / daylight savings. That way it's pretty much the same time relative to the "working day".
Which link to Terrorgraph? Got it. Yes, they added one a year or more back. I'll see if I can find a non-paywall version ...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Don't think the linkiness survived copy/paste...
Normal CCC rules apply: How to solve cryptic crosswords[^] <<<<=====
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994. So does this signature. me, 2012
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Turning off Javascript seems to "break" the paywall for me on the Telegraph site. (I used to be a subscriber though which may have some bearing).
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