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Many years ago when I did my military service one of the guys that served with us was a watchman in his civilian life.
He had two very well trained rottweilers to help him with that.
When he was gone his girlfriend had to take care of them, which she didn't really like, as she was a bit intimidated by them.
One night when she was walking the dogs she got harassed by a gang of teenagers, and the dogs did exactly what they were trained to do. (Which means noone actually got hurt, but some kids needed their laundry done)
After that he complained that they weren't his dogs any more, she spoiled them rotten.
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Hehe, similar experience 
Dogs are territorial, and that territory includes you, no matter where you are. If you there, that's territory, including a few meters around you. They do not stop fighting if they loosing, depending on the force of a pack, or you running.
A girl with a big dog is a safe one.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: This more a discussion if free will exists, and there's no proof for free will.
A strictly scientific criterion would be that an assertion, where no evidence would disprove it, asserts nothing.
However, if people act as if there is free will, claim to perceive it, act on it, observe it, that is a reality.
I don't believe Giant experiences any "guilt;" his funeral "apology" exists in a complex cultural context of S.E. Asian Theravadin Buddhism interlaced with lots of magical/animist left-overs, and strong top-notes of fatalism.
That said: I have seen dogs acting/looking as if they are aware they did something "wrong" when discovered tearing up something: is that more than just stimulus-response to learning punishment follows certain actions ?
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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BillWoodruff wrote: A strictly scientific criterion would be that an assertion, where no evidence would disprove it, asserts nothing.
And hence, me is superman. We use maths to predict what is biologically possible, with reasonable results. Couldn't predict the Scarlet Witch, so your opinion holds.
BillWoodruff wrote: I don't believe
In taxes, still it exists. What you choose to believe makes you human. If you measure instead of believe, you a scientist.
BillWoodruff wrote: That said: I have seen dogs acting/looking as if they are aware they did something "wrong" when discovered tearing up something: is that more than just stimulus-response to learning punishment follows certain actions ?
That might be the same, but it is "learning" nonetheless.
And "acting" is true; they read body language, and inflection of your voice, as well as the way you present. If it understood and could combine it with memory, it would avoid the situation as a human would. As for humans, we don't accept any competition, we rule the land we inhabit and there's little land we don't rule.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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BillWoodruff wrote: A strictly scientific criterion would be that an assertion, where no evidence would disprove it, asserts nothing.
Phrased like that, it is equal to it's opposite assertion.
BillWoodruff wrote: However, if people act as if there is free will, claim to perceive it, act on it, observe it, that is a reality.
How? Perceiving it don't make it so, nor acting or observing it. I experienced such, heightened reaction, perception, reaction when challenged as a kid. Had nothing to do with free will, but being small, red haired and wearing glasses. My reality was as perceived, and we did act instead of observe.
BillWoodruff wrote: That said: I have seen dogs acting/looking as if they are aware they did something "wrong" when discovered tearing up something: is that more than just stimulus-response to learning punishment follows certain actions ?
I own a cat named "Well Done" if translated to English, he more than 10 years. My parents bought a puppy, some small but "energezing rabbit" batteries in her, running around the cat in circles for fun.
Cat strikes out, after five minutes, toppling the poor puppy. Both looking at me with the expression "we did nothing wrong".
Me, a half German, relate to that. We did not do anything wrong. We just did.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Quote: Giant wagged his tail and was clearly happy to meet the wife of the victim Wanphen Khumkhong, also 56.
Relatives inquired about Giant's condition and if he could eat while muzzled.
He performed the ceremony and soon left.
We're talking about a killer dog here! 
Regarding the scorpion/frog story, I've also heard it told with a sweet old lady and a snake. (once famously told by an ex-President) 
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
"Hope is contagious"
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It was noted that a passerby heard said apology, the witness stated they overheard the canine in question mentioning something about "liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti".
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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The story of the scorpion and the frog is older than most Russian folk tales. It appears in the Talmud (Nedarim 41:1), which was written between 220 CE and 550 CE.
I'm fairly certain that even this is not the earliest version of the tale...
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Indeed, I am aware of that source, and Aesop's (whether it's original Aesop is doubted by scholars) similar (turtle, spider) story, and a medieval Sufi variant.
A commentary I've seen on the Nedarim story ... in which both scorpion and frog survive crossing the river ... is that the man the scorpion stung to death is a man who was about to commit murder, and, thus, the story demonstrates that YHWH may act in mysterious (to humans) ways.
In the Sufi story, both scorpion and frog survive, and, the scorpion stings a poisonous snake about to bite a man. Suggesting divine providence is mysterious ?
Somewhere I have notes on the sources for these, I may be off since I can't find them to refresh my recollection.
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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BillWoodruff wrote: In the Sufi story, both scorpion and frog survive, and, the scorpion stings a poisonous snake about to bite a man. Suggesting divine providence is mysterious ?
If the snake bites the man, both scorpion and frog not affected. You could further complicate it by saying a girl kissed the frog.
Sufi.
I challenge your gods, wearing a copper suit, during a thunderstorm, on any mountain, shouting "all gods are bastards".
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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You know. I had forgotten. until today, how intellectual content triggers your anxieties, and you lose control.
I wish I could help you with this issue.
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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BillWoodruff wrote: and you lose control.
It was easy to dismiss as incidents. Not just incidents here, but the supermarket made it, well, were we now. Last visit was miserable and saved by a girl working at check out. Sometimes she does the groceries as well.
Quote was from Terry Pratchett; still haven't read all the books.
BillWoodruff wrote: I wish I could help you with this issue.
Tx for the idea. Neurological, will not get better.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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So I've got this report, which is supposed to look something like:
Invoice | x | €100
Payment | a | € 50
Credit | b | € 40
------------------
Due | € 10 The customer is currently seeing this, but also something else:
Payment | c | € 70
------------------
Due | € 70
Credit | d | € 25
------------------
Due | € 25 Now, I'd expect something like "this makes no sense, why do I see a payment or a credit without an invoice!?"
And I'd say "this is exactly the data I'm getting from your other system, so this is what I can show you. Garbage in, garbage out."
However, what they're saying is "I don't know what invoice that credit belongs to." (while not untrue this isn't really the issue  )
My answer remains the same though, garbage in garbage out.
So now their "fix" to their problem is to add an extra field "original invoice number", which of course I can only show if the data is correct, so in the first case when the invoice is already shown.
I told them this isn't going to work and the problem will remain.
However, they insist.
The new report will look like:
Invoice | x | | €100
Payment | a | | € 50
Credit | b | x | € 40
----------------------
Due | € 10
Payment | c | | € 70
----------------------
Due | € 70
Credit | d | | € 25
----------------------
Due | € 25 I can already hear them say my fix isn't working 
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when a payment is made via check or credit card, or a credit to the account, an invoice number is not required? very interesting. Do they just make payments/credits under a company or person name? if so, could you just start assigning the oldest invoices, in order, to these payments and credits?
we have a payment web-portal that lets certain users just make payments, and we assign the payment to the oldest invoices first, working our way to the newest. That way the user does not have to remember or choose an invoice number.
forgive me if that is what you already mentioned.
modified 24-Apr-21 11:28am.
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I can't (or won't) do anything, just show the data.
The payments are matched with invoices in another system that I have no knowledge of or access to.
I just get the data in seemingly random order and show it in a report.
Any issues with the data should be fixed in the other system by other people.
The data consists of some thousands customers, about twice as many invoices and maybe hundred details like payments and credit notes.
The number of details alone rang some alarm bells, but apparently this is what it is 
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Where does the payment of 70 come from, given the original statement? Second example also goes to 95, not 100.
Sander Rossel wrote: However, they insist.
On having a due of 25, instead of 10?
Who is going to be financially liable for any faults in the system when going to court?
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Where does the payment of 70 come from
I don't know, that's the point, it's just there floating in the void.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: Second example also goes to 95, not 100.
I have no idea what you're saying.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: On having a due of 25, instead of 10?
Again, no idea what you're saying.
The invoice is €100 and it had a payment of €50 and a credit of €40 so the remaining amount is €10.
If you're referring to the payment and credit of €70 and €25 they're not part of the invoice, they're just there being separate entities without context, they make no sense.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: Who is going to be financially liable for any faults in the system when going to court?
Not me, I'm just showing some data from a third party system.
Anyway, we're not going to court, we currently have a good relation and they want to discuss the next project with me 
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That doesn't sound like a cloud issue, more like a bad program or bad vendor issue.
My customer has an on-prem system which does pretty much the same, generate wrong reports that don't get fixed.
Basically, the reason I'm there is because other vendors don't do their job or do it poorly.
We're talking about big vendors that cost €150,000.00 a year on support contracts alone and an additional €130 an hour if they ever do any work for you (despite the support contract).
Meanwhile, my software is running fully in the cloud and they get exactly what they want.
I fix most issues within a few days (and often the same day).
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I won a Fleabay auction for £40 less than I was prepared to pay (second hand table saw); I've fixed my MS PC game controller so my GTA-V helicopter doesn't go right all the damn time (just dirt on one side of the analog stick jamming it from recentering but I had to take it apart to clean); one of my routers will be suitable for conversion to a table router; the sun is shining merrily; and I've got chicken marinating for supper tonight with a salad.
Nothing to do with computers at all, of course - but I'll take victories where I can get 'em!
Nice when a Saturday goes well ... 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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I suggest you enjoy it while it lasts! 
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
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How do routers have nothing to do with computers. And why would you want to put one on a tabletop???
😆
If you can't laugh at yourself - ask me and I will do it for you.
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These make holes in wood, not downloads!
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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This explains the error messages of 'No data found in the import file.' which I would have assumed was self-explanatory and not worthy of a support call. The truth is, when I asked about error messages, she had no idea, just that she clicked OK on something. 
