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And if that doesn't work, the volleyball net out back needs to be restrung, but I'm afraid I can't get to it until all the pancakes are done. 
Charlie
if(!curlies){ return; }
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... and I'm not ashamed. It hasn't really hurt me. I can see how sysadmin types might want these, it can be far more valuable for them than for the typical software engineer, IMHO.
An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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Navin wrote:
I can see how sysadmin types might want these
Lets rephrase: I can see how sysadmin types might wanted these. I'm an MSCE (and whatever silly attachments they add) and not once has it even got me a job..... or an interview. Was a nice 6 week break though for the course :p
top secret xacc-ide 0.0.1
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Knowledge is the key. I learned a lot during the quest and it did make me a better developer. It also got my in the door for several interviews and added 20k to paycheck.
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I agree, only hard work and knowledge will get you a job 
And MSCE and all that stuff is way to expensive for me to get.
"Every rule in a world of bits and bytes can be bend or eventually be broken"
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Navin wrote:
and I'm not ashamed. It hasn't really hurt me.
I have an MCP, but only because my previous job said that they would pay me $1300 if I got one. So 2 weeks later, I did! It was the easiest ~$1000 (after taxes) I ever made! I do not believe that the MCP got my any job that I would have missed without it. I also do not have a college degree, and given my current employment situation and rate, I can honestly say that it has not hurt me, either.
I really pity those these days that honestly believe that education is more important than good solid experience. Experience and wisdom are far more important than knowledge/education. (Need proof? When was the last time you heard of someone being hired as a senior level developer/designer/architect fresh out of college with no experience?)
BTW: for those that care (a limited audience, to be sure! ), this is what I consider the difference between knowledge and wisdom to be:
o Knowledge is what you gain from books/classes/school/self-study/early-experiences,etc.
o Experience is what you get applying that knowledge in different(!!!) scenarios
o Wisdom is what you gain from the results of the experience
That is why wisdom usually takes much longer to gain than knowledge and/or experience. -And why it is much more important.
Navin wrote:
I can see how sysadmin types might want these [...]
Not all of 'em; some of the old-timers out there will remember when CNEs were a hot item. Took about a year or so for people to wake-up and realize the fact that a couple of years of solid experience beat a newbie CNE any day!
Peace!
-=- James
Tip for SUV winter driving survival: "Professional Driver on Closed Course" does not mean "your Dumb Ass on a Public Road"!
Articles -- Products: Delete FXP Files & Check Favorites
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I would agree in principle that experience is more important, because I have learned ten times more about software development on the job than I ever did in classes. However, in my experience if you posses a lot of work experience but do not have a college degree, you are still paid like crap. Right now I have 4 years of solid experience in software development and testing, but still have a measly 2 courses I have to retake on my B.S. degree (the most expensive piece of paper I have ever had to buy). Since my degree is not complete, the best job I can get is being a Co-op student which pays less than living wage (less than 24K). What adds insult to injury is the fact that I have to work for some chinese chick who only knows how to program in DOS, yet she is the one who they are letting develop our mission critical applications in windows, none of which work I might add.
But wait it gets even better...
Even when I graduate this next semester, since my GPA is less than 3.0, no company is willing to even look at my resume even though I have way more experience than any other student in the college. I hate it when companies require minimum GPA's to even apply, what moron thought that idea up.
Sorry if this borderlines on a rant, but I am poor, frustrated, and my family is nearly homeless.
Daniel Petersen
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Bummer of a story - unfortunatly stuff like that happens at many companies - even fairly good ones. The good news for you is there are many companies that do not require a specific GPA before they look at a resume. You will find one.
Good luck,
Ian
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Daniel Petersen wrote:
since my GPA is less than 3.0, no company is willing to even look at my resume
Wow, that makes no sense at all imho. 
The company I work bases its hiring decisions almost exclusively on opinions gleaned from the interviewing process and reference checks. I should add that although we're very selective, we've been able to hire lots of good developers recently-graduated from neighborhood schools. By the same token, we've also encountered some pretty "experienced" engineers who've stumbled miserably when faced with some of our design problems.
/ravi
My new year's resolution: 2048 x 1536
Home | Articles | Freeware | Music
ravib@ravib.com
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Daniel Petersen wrote:
However, in my experience if you posses a lot of work experience but do not have a college degree, you are still paid like crap.
Sounds like you are working for/with the wrong companies. I will put it this way, I started making a six figure salary when I was ~27 (and this is in New Hampshire, with no income tax!). -And I refuse to wear a suit/tie to work! You just have to educate the companies out there of your value. Being able to back up those claims helps, too! (And no matter what, never accept someone else telling you that you are not worth the money you are asking for!)
Daniel Petersen wrote:
I hate it when companies require minimum GPA's to even apply, what moron thought that idea up.
IME, the only people that care about degrees, GPAs, and $hit like that are the ones that were forced to get 'em themselves (most of the Ph.Ds I know are like that). Older people like that grew up in a world where you HAD to go to college just to have access to modern technologies (e.g. computers and connectivity). Things are much different now.
Peace! -- And trust me, there are companies/people out there that have grown to realize that the world does not revolve around a degree with a GPA stamped on it.
-=- James
Tip for SUV winter driving survival: "Professional Driver on Closed Course" does not mean "your Dumb Ass on a Public Road"!
Articles -- Products: Delete FXP Files & Check Favorites
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James R. Twine wrote:
I started making a six figure salary when I was ~27
Thats some going, contracting or permanent?
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norm.net wrote:
Thats some going, contracting or permanent?
Thanks! That was permanent (salaried) -- I did not do any contracting work until after the so-called "bust" of the .com bubble. But I should have mentioned that various factors dictate my rate: travel, commuting/driving time, ability to telecommute, etc. I do not always go in demanding six figures.
For example, for one gig I was able to work entirely out of my home office (plus a 45 minute drive once a month for meetings), and could take an hour or so a week to visit my kids at daycare. Result? A reduced rate in the high $80K to low $90K range; I am more than willing to knock off up to $20K (or even more for the right position!) to be able to work out of my home office rather than waste time driving to work (and my employer gets more hours of work as a result, even whan salaried).
Now, consider them wanting me to drive an hour (or more!) to work, no telecommuting, perhaps even out-of-state income taxes? Talking an easy 6 figures to get me in for an interview, minimum. But at least I make that clear to them before the interview, so that we do not waste each other's time (much).
Peace!
-=- James
Tip for SUV winter driving survival: "Professional Driver on Closed Course" does not mean "your Dumb Ass on a Public Road"!
Articles -- Products: Delete FXP Files & Check Favorites
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James, I admire your brashness. I suppose the saying goes "if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys" comes into swing.
Anyway good luck.
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norm.net wrote:
James, I admire your brashness. I suppose the saying goes "if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys" comes into swing.
Thanks!
One developer/consultant that I have a large amount of respect for (we all call him "Darth") once said: "you are paid what you are worth" (or maybe it was "you are worth what you are paid"). IIRC, his point was that if you end up doing work for someone at a reduced rate, you become worth that rate. So be careful working for peanuts!
Peace!
-=- James
Tip for SUV winter driving survival: "Professional Driver on Closed Course" does not mean "your Dumb Ass on a Public Road"!
Articles -- Products: Delete FXP Files & Check Favorites
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James R. Twine wrote:
So be careful working for peanuts!
...and becareful working with VB
Cheers
Norm
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Hear, hear! 
Peace!
-=- James
Tip for SUV winter driving survival: "Professional Driver on Closed Course" does not mean "your Dumb Ass on a Public Road"!
Articles -- Products: Delete FXP Files & Check Favorites
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Any certification is no replacement for a degree. MCP/MCSE/MCAD/MWHATEVEH... they learn how to glue peices together, and how to interact with the environment. Instead of that, I learned how to break the system, see how it works, and put it back together in a better way.
Well, not exactly, but it's close.
The best way to go is to have a job while in college. Go local, find a shop that you can get some part time work in, and make sure that it isn't the school itself. Screw certifications, unless some dopey company is willing to pay you to get one.
I also disagree with your definition of wisdom, and where you get it from. There are many unwise people that have had many experiences. Take bungy jumpers / sky divers as an example. Yes, personal experience is one of the ingredients of wisdom, but so is observation of other's experiences. Wisdom comes as a result of those things mixed with something within, insight.
10 PRINT "I know BASIC!"
20 GOTO 10
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Molybedenum wrote:
Any certification is no replacement for a degree.
Some would say that a degree is no replacement for experience.
Molybedenum wrote:
The best way to go is to have a job while in college.
Did that. I worked for both of my colleges as a programmer and assistant SysAdmin, in fact. Not to mention working as a developer during the summer. Having those jobs while in school is what convinced me that I was wasting my time. Some of the staff there agreed with me, and that was enough for me to leave.
Molybedenum wrote:
I also disagree with your definition of wisdom, and where you get it from. There are many unwise people that have had many experiences.
Absolutely right; that is Exactly why I said:
Experience is what you get applying that knowledge in <big>different</big>(!!!) scenarios
Those scenarios include fail scenarios as well as successful ones, and watching the steps other take and the results as they succeed or fail as well (following by example). Granted, I was not completely clear on that point.
Molybedenum wrote:
Wisdom comes as a result of those things mixed with something within, insight.
Insight mixed with a little hindsight, and maybe a smidgen or foresight, perhaps? Regardless, an interesting point you make there.
Peace!
-=- James
Tip for SUV winter driving survival: "Professional Driver on Closed Course" does not mean "your Dumb Ass on a Public Road"!
Articles -- Products: Delete FXP Files & Check Favorites
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