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Joaquín M López Muñoz wrote:
I might be completely wrong, but IMHO it's really hard to beat C++ in such a simple test. Did you use the debug version of the C++ program? Take into acount that a counting loop will compile to no more than ten machine instructions.
I agree with you completely... Personally I expected that the C++ version would win hands down. I didn't actually do these tests myself. A co-worker, also a C++/MFC/.NET/C# person did them a while back and he just brough it up during a discussion about VB/VB.NET/C# and so on.
Regards,
Brian Dela 
http://www.briandela.com IE 6 required.
http://www.briandela.com/pictures Now with a pictures section 
http://www.briandela.com/rss/newsrss.xml RSS Feed
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Joaquín M López Muñoz wrote:
but IMHO it's really hard to beat C++ in such a simple test
What makes you think so? IMO, there is very little room for advanced optimizations in such sample - I would expect VB (or even Java) to perform as well as C++.
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You said it, equal performance is something expected, but a time gain of 5% seems too much to me. It'd be enlighting to have a look at the assembly code generated by each compiler.
Joaquín M López Muñoz
Telefónica, Investigación y Desarrollo
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I am a c# developer and from when visual studio .net came out i really don't see the point in working with c++ in real world apps. Ok it might be a bit faster, that's true but with c# you do the same thinks in the half time and with much cleaner code that allmost anybody can understand and fix if there is any problem, also the portability (as told from microsoft) to 64bit without even recompiling using the .Net runtime 64bit i think that it will be something very important. C++ is a very powerful language that you would like to use if you write any scientific app that uses lot of math, in this case yes the difference is very important, but when you develop enterprise apps with sql server and asp.net c++ is an old language that give nothing else than complexity and a bit of speed. And also don't forget winfx and longhorn. The future is managed!!!!!
From Greece:
Dimitris Iliopoulos
dimilio@yahoo.com
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Dimitris Iliopoulos wrote:
The future is managed!!!!!
Yep. At least to some degree whether big or small. At least on the survey currently going, you have to admit that C/C++ is still (at least currently) holding first which says something. You're right when it comes to ASP.NET and SQL Server apps. I wouldn't dream of using C++ for those myself either.
Dimitris Iliopoulos wrote:
I am a c# developer and from when visual studio .net came out i really don't see the point in working with c++ in real world apps.
I personally don't go that far with .NET (managed code). I look at a project when determining what language to use and think, how complex is the program going to be and what kind of power do I need to weild, along with considering whether performance will be an issue along with cross-platform needs (Linux, etc). If I see a high need for at least most of those areas on a large scale, then C++ is my choice. If not, then I will typically choose C# (VB.NET if I want to have fun  ) since it is a lot like what I am used to (C++) and like you mentioned, RAD development is nice; especially when the programmer still takes the time to do the planning part.
The new Managed Extensions for C++ which will be coming in the next version of Visual Studio .NET sound pretty interesting to me as the current ones (IMO) really stink: __gc, etc...  We'll all see how things go upon release.
Those are just my thoughts... 
Happy Programming!
WWW::CodeProject::BNEACETP
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"I am a c# developer and from when visual studio .net came out i really don't see the point in working with c++ in real world apps."
...becuase you can use c++ in different environments. You're skills aren't tied to one particular platform.
Also, maybe it's not desirable to force your customers to download the latest .NET framework to install your product
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this is just an opinion:
Does language really matter?
I strongly believe that it's the music that matters for a soulful experience and not the instrument!
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that's true, knowing c++ you can go and write code to any operating system. Every operating system first of all supports c++.
From Greece:
Dimitris Iliopoulos
dimilio@yahoo.com
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Dimitris Iliopoulos wrote:
i really don't see the point in working with c++ in real world apps.
Define "reall life apps". I've just ported a very "real-life" C# library to C++, and it is now:
1. Smaller (in terms of lines of code) and easier to maintain.
2. Portable.
3. Faster.
4. Less memory consuming.
5. Not dependent on .NET Framework.
6. Harder to reverse engineer.
I think all of these points are very "real life". Of course, there are situations in which none of these points matter, but still it is a huge mistake to believe that C# can replace C++ "in real word apps".
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I don't know why you're responding in such a way to my post, because I wasn't touting about C++; but anyway, I'll call your bluff
I am a c# developer and from when visual studio .net came out i really don't see the point in working with c++ in real world apps.
For some range of apps C# (and Java) is a very reasonable choice. Nobody (reasonable) would claim C++ or any other language as the perfect choice for anything.
Ok it might be a bit faster, that's true but with c# you do the same thinks in the half time...
Do you like Blade Runner? "I've done things in C++ you people wouldn't believe". Now seriously, C++ is equipped with such a diverse array of language constructs that other languages poorly simulate at best, templates being probably the most amazing. Much of current bleeding edge programming is done in C++, google for generic programming and metaprogramming, for instance. C++ is powerful and is fun. Admittedly, harnessing such power does not come easily, but the learning process is thrilling. So, maybe you can do some things in C# in half the time, but sure there're things people are crafting in C++ that one just cannot implement in C#.
and with much cleaner code...
I have to dissent here. You can write messy code in any language, but C++ goes a long way in helping the programmer write cleaner and more maintainable stuff. RAII comes to my mind, for instance: in C++ you can have all acquired resources released in a predictable and easy-to-code manner (by associating resource release to objects destruction); C# does not enjoy scope-controlled destruction, and the try-finally workaround is a pain in the ass.
To summarize, I'm not saying C# is useful for nothing, but claiming you can do with it the same as with C++ just shows how much you still can learn (and enjoy) from C++.
Joaquín M López Muñoz
Telefónica, Investigación y Desarrollo
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ok, you are completely right that with c++ there are things that you can do that with other languages (including c#) you cannot, but let's take a real world scenario:
A client come in your company and say to you that he has a problem in his work. He uses a very messy excel file so he can write down his clients and his providers and calculate the economic data of his company. So he asks you to build for him a program that can do the same thing as the excel file and some things beyond that, he wants to have access to his main data with his pocket pc and a gprs connection and he wants also a very small solution to do some things over the internet. So, first of all you are going to use a db (mostly SQL server or anything else) to build your db, also you need to build the windows program that is going to do the job,(add clients,providers,money transactions...) also you are going to use an always on connection and setup an IIS to host the site and some web services for the pocket pc (http without soap is better because of the low amount of data it transfer over the low and expensive gprs connection), after that you are going to build the UI for the pocket pc with the .NET Compact Framework and you are going to easily use the web services on the server.
If you want to build this with c++, it's sure it will be done, and it will be faster than c#. The only thing is that you are not going to build it because your client will have gone to another software house, and that's because they are going to deploy the solution using c# and .NET framework in the half time and with half of the money.
So i agree completely that with c++ there are no limits, you can do everything!!! and for scientific purposes is far the best. If you want to build an algorithm that has lot of math and very large amount of memory to use c++ is the ultimate tool, but if you want to build software for business ,i think (IT'S MY OPINION) that is a very wrong decision to use C++.
I hope i was clear in my text!
From Greece:
Dimitris Iliopoulos
dimilio@yahoo.com
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Hey, I hope I didn't sound flaming in my previous post, my apologies if I did. I think we basically agree. C# and Java have real advantages in web-based apps; the team I work in uses Java routinely for such systems, and our productivity is high.
What I actually dislike is people saying that C# is as powerful as C++ or that (God forgive them) "language does not matter" --the latter oftenly in connection with .NET. Much of C#'s power comes not from the language itself but from the huge array of facilities revolving around the language, much like J2EE and Java. But if we are speaking about languages, I yet have to see something one can write more expressively in C# than in C++. You see, I don't program for money anymore (though I work in a software house), so basically I approach programming for fun. And C++ is a lot of fun.
OTOH, there are extra-language considerations when developing systems: in web-based business apps frameworks like .NET and J2EE, as you point out, can be the option of choice.
Best,
Joaquín M López Muñoz
Telefónica, Investigación y Desarrollo
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If you're just counting then the optimizer will remove the loop altogether, which would leave you nothing but process creation/destruction overhead.
If you're writing each number to a file or something, you'll probably spend more time actually writing the numbers than counting them. (and I would not be surprized if VB was faster at text io; no standard library, so it can go strait to win32)
Of course, with a test that simple, it might take so little time that you don't have enough resolution on your timer to meaningfully time it.
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what about malloc ??? That one is slow in comparison with C#. Brings us back to the discussion about speed. 
Use what you like and looks handy for the job.
Greetings....
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I think they probably will run a dead heat. Both have about an equal number of annoyances vs. useful features.
"I'd be up a piece if I hadn't swallowed my bishop." Mr. Ed, playing chess
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So who's the poor sap that wrote in "FORTRAN"?
"I'd be up a piece if I hadn't swallowed my bishop." Mr. Ed, playing chess
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Where are the ckeck of LOGO and QBASIC??? 
Carlos Antollini
Do you know piFive[^] ?
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I think we need a LOGO.NET!
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Or Lego.NET ?
Maxwell Chen
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OK what happened to CListCtrl? Is no one using that anymore? Not good enough to be entered to the survey anymore?
Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beierhund das oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
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dabs wrote:
OK what happened to CListCtrl? Is no one using that anymore? Not good enough to be entered to the survey anymore?
It got boring.
And in this survey, it's almost a sensible answer - where's the fun in that?
--
Ian Darling
"The different versions of the UN*X brand operating system are numbered in a logical sequence: 5, 6, 7, 2, 2.9, 3, 4.0, III, 4.1, V, 4.2, V.2, and 4.3" - Alan Filipski
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It's like the redesign of a website: Most companies do it only because the current design is getting boring to THEM. But to their customers it would be helpful to stay what they used to.
So is with <a href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/vclib/html/_MFC_CListCtrl.asp" style="text-decoration:underline">CListCtrl</a> (for which I actually voted here): Just because it's getting boring to you/us, this is NO reason to get rid of
--
- Free Windows-based CMS: www.zeta-software.de/enu/producer/freeware/download.html
- See me: www.magerquark.de
- MSN Messenger: uwe_keim@hotmail.com
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It's soooo terrible to work on this project with VB 6  .
I miss the inheritance, ADO.NET, reflection, C# - just everything. Thank god, that this is the last version which is developed in VB 6. The next version will be written in C#.
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