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...VB rocks, because it makes programming accessible to almost anyone...
...VB sucks, because it encourages the coding equivalent of house-building using 2x4s, duct tape, and string...
...VB rocks, because it doesn't require me to remember those horrid semicolons...
...VB sucks, because it lacks CListCtrl... 
But in the end, it's all just database access right? And that stuff is just plain boring.
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Shog9 wrote:
...VB sucks, because it lacks CListCtrl...
You make a very good point. I hate having to use the ListView control in VB. It's such a pain in the ass compared to CListCtrl. I really miss SetItemData and pointers when I'm in VB!
Michael
But you know when the truth is told,
That you can get what you want or you can just get old,
Your're going to kick off before you even get halfway through.
When will you realise... Vienna waits for you? - "The Stranger," Billy Joel
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Much like the control in .NET, the VB ListView control allows easier access to much of the WC_LISTVIEW functionality...
...Unfortunately, what they don't make easier, they make more difficult. 
But in the end, it's all just database access right? And that stuff is just plain boring.
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Shog9 wrote:
VB rocks, because it doesn't require me to remember those horrid semicolons
Double edged sword: You have to remember those horrid underscores if you're splitting a line of code into a new line of text.
--Colin Mackay--
EuroCPian Spring 2004 Get Together[^]
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar
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For the first time in my history of visiting CodeProject, I find I'm unable to find an option which reflects how I feel.
The poll options, seem a little childish and do nothing to address the real reasons why VB programmers have a bad name.
VB, got it's reputation because it allowed nearly anybody to pick it up and create an application. Now whether this is a good thing or a bad thing I don't know. A lot of poor code was written, poor code in the sense, hard to read and maintain. Badly structured and poorly documented.
Lots of good code has been written in VB, I know of big enterprise apps that were written by developers who had experience of coding; not hacked together by wanner be programmers, such as managers, tech support staff and journalists.
All languages allow you to write crap code, VB just makes it easier (IMO).
Of course, developers weren't helped by the dodgy UI which prevented you from seeing all the code. I've never been a fan of RAD development enviroments, point and click gives you too much of an opportunity to build reams of code, without design or forethough - I should know I've used VB in that way.
Like most things in this world, VB in itself wasn't a bad thing - it's just a minority of wannabe programmers spoilt it for the rest of us.
Michael
But you know when the truth is told,
That you can get what you want or you can just get old,
Your're going to kick off before you even get halfway through.
When will you realise... Vienna waits for you? - "The Stranger," Billy Joel
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Changed my sig - SCNR
"All languages allow you to write crap code, VB just makes it easier (IMO)."
Michael P Butler
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Michael P Butler wrote:
Lots of good code has been written in VB
Interesting that you should mention that. I've used a lot of professional apps for businesses large and small over the years. Nearly all were written in BASIC or, in the past several years, Visual Basic. I say nearly only because I haven't been able in every case to identify the language used. Of those where a control style or an error message gave away the identity of the language, all were in BASIC/VB.
Since it's so popular in business, programmers who shun VB are potentially only doing themselves out of a market...
"Another day done - All targets met; all systems fully operational; all customers satisfied; all staff keen and well motivated; all pigs fed and ready to fly" - Jennie A.
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You hit the nail on the head so to speak. In days gone by VB was the best language for small productivity apps kinda like an extended macro. C and C++ addressed a different world altogether, think about a "struct" to create a record and then think about trying to put all the data from a database in that struct within an array and so forth and so on. The programmer who could do that was not cost effective I assure you. Enter the guy with VB knowlege and suddenly we have a cost savings.
While that was fine a generation ago the demands today are much greater. Companies that continue to rely on VB and access are bound to technologies that don't provide the scalabilty and flex that is needed. Basically it is a matter of competion.
Oh well, I've beat this horse to death. The language is at fault for allowing anyone to believe they are a programmer and the industry is at fault for not recogizing that good software, no matter the price, will be less expensive in the long run.
Hell, we should have Unionized!!
Pamela Reinskou
Some Days the Dragon Wins!!
VersusLaw Inc.
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"It's horrible" perfectly reflects how I feel.
But I had exactly the same feeling with a recent poll, so you're forgiven 
Flirt harder, I'm a coder.
mlog || Agile Programming | doxygen
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It was meant to be humerous. 
I have been programming in VB since version 1 and am fed up with people slating it all the time. VB is accessible to more programmers, hence you tend to get more bad code written in VB.
I prefer to code in VB because I like the way it reads so easily. C and it's derivitives are really hard to read because there language is unstructured. I have had to take over C projects and find it a nightmare that there are so many different ways to write the same commands.
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Maybe, but it's stirred up some debate. I was umm-ing and ah-ing a lot about posting this poll and decided in the end to post it as it was sent in to see the discussions that would ensue. Having someone post a long diatribe about the options is far more interesting than looking at horizontal bars.
So thanks, Michael 
cheers,
Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote:
So thanks, Michael
My pleasure
I didn't want to call it a Childish poll but I couldn't think of a better term. The poll seemed like it was cooked up by some VB nut who was attempting to justify his love for VB in negative terms.
However, the discussion that has followed has been excellent, so I think you made the right choice in posting it. Perhaps you'll post my poll next.
"Why is Java so popular?"
1. There are lots of weenies who are too scared to do their own memory allocation"
2. There are lots of weenies who don't like pointers
3. Because developers thought it was something to do with coffee
4. Because those who thought VB was too easy and C++ was too hard, had to do something
5. Because Microsoft took so damn long to invent C#
Michael
But you know when the truth is told,
That you can get what you want or you can just get old,
Your're going to kick off before you even get halfway through.
When will you realise... Vienna waits for you? - "The Stranger," Billy Joel
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As I remember ,I read somewhere its the most common language which use today,so what ever it is , we can't ignore it.
Mazy
No sig. available now.
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Just because it's the most common doesn't mean it should be used. Once people realize that there ARE other solutions to programming tasks other than what Microso$t forces upon the masses we will all be better off.
Yes, I am a C++ programmer. Used VB version 3,4,5, etc. So I know of what I speak. VB is evil and should be destroyed.
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I am sorry we VB programmers didn't hop from the womb to the heap in same manner as yourselves. I am getting there, others are getting there, and all you 'lunatic fringe' coders better get to the business at hand; keeping your employer happy.
I really like that Microsoft has labeled my types as 'Occupational Programmers' so that rest of the fringe leave me and my types alone.
Yes, you code better than me. Yes your prettier than me. Yes the ladies like you better than me. Now get out of my way I have got work to do. My business degree is getting good use every day- oh, and I cut good code too
Thank you CODE PROJECT for recognizing VB!!!
You Rock!!!
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I've noticed that the most popular answer is that VB isn't a real programming language. I wonder how many of those who claimed that have actually used it. Of those who have, I would ask "In what ways is it lacking?"
Nathan
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Actually I am willing to bet a lot of people got forced to use it at either school or university. Of people who don't like VB I have met, I can confidently say 0% of them have been "snobs".
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dog_spawn wrote:
Actually I am willing to bet a lot of people got forced to use it at either school or university. Of people who don't like VB I have met, I can confidently say 0% of them have been "snobs".
I am sorry if I implied people who feel VB is not a real programming language are snobs. Before I used I assumed that it was inadequate as a language just because it was called BASIC. Then my employer got a contract that required use of it and I found it was a quite capable language and that it had some really neat feature, especially events.
I was curious about how common my gut reaction to the name BASIC is and what people mean by a "real programming language."
Nathan
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Nathan Holt at CCEI wrote:
I would ask "In what ways is it lacking?"
To me, VB is bad because...
1. Object Orientation just got hacked in
2. The RAD development enviroment makes developing scalable, easy to maintain applications a nightmare. The entire environment is poor, editing code is a real bitch.
VB is like a toolbox, in the hands of a craftsman, you can end up with some amazing stuff, but without the skills to use it right you end up with Homer Simpson's attempt at building a barbeque or his attempt at a Spice rack
Sadly VB fell into the hands of people who had no business writing commerical grade software and that is how it earnt its reputation, because at the end of the day it's people like us who have to keep the things running.
Michael
But you know when the truth is told,
That you can get what you want or you can just get old,
Your're going to kick off before you even get halfway through.
When will you realise... Vienna waits for you? - "The Stranger," Billy Joel
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If you have to ask, then you wouldn't understand the answer...
And yes, I have used it. From when it was VB 3.0 with it's "p-code" to VB 6.0. Great for prototyping a UI, but for any real work, not even a distant second to a modern language(e.g. Java, C++)
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Nathan Holt at CCEI wrote:
I've noticed that the most popular answer is that VB isn't a real programming language
That depends on how you interpret the statistics. You could also say that about two thirds (actually slightly more at the time of writing) of people do think it is a real programming language.
--Colin Mackay--
EuroCPian Spring 2004 Get Together[^]
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar
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Visual Basic has made programming accessible to the masses. Seemingly anyone who is computer literate can write a VB application. The language is simple and relatively 'safe'. While this is a good thing in terms of making the computer useful for more people, it has muddied the water when it comes to defining what makes a programmer, especially to people who are not programmers.
I don't think the ability to write VB applications in and of itself makes you a programmer. It just says that you can take a problem description and turn it into VB code that solves the problem. In my experience, 'VB programmers' have little or no knowledge of the fundamentals of computing: algorithms, data structures, logic, design, etc. They also tend to follow poor engineering practices; their code will be fragile and lack robustness.
In my view, a 'real' programmer (more properly, a software engineer) is someone who can take a problem description and write an application that solves the problem, in a language appropriate to the problem. A programmer adjusts his tools to fit the problem. A real programmer ensures that his code handles exceptional conditions and resource limitations gracefully. Note that a real programmer will use VB, if that's the appropriate tool. I've written VB apps, because they were so good at handling OLE automation.
Unfortunately in the corporate hierarchy, management usually fails to recognize this distinction.
Software Zen: delete this;
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I agree 100%, and you've said it very well.
The question is, how to stop this problem? On the one hand, we want software development to be easy. We don't want to jump through hoops to change the background color of a button, or the font in an edit box, or worry about double-byte strings, etc... but at the same time we don't want it to seem so simple that "programming" skills are entirely optional.
I guess it boils down to how much previous programming exposure management has had. 
Regards,
Alvaro
"I do" is both the shortest and the longest sentence in the English language.
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I think we want the 'nuts and bolts' things to be easy. Nuts and bolts includes the user interface, data bases, communications, device and file I/O, the kinds of things that the O/S manages. This lets us concentrate our expertise on the hard stuff: the problem space we are addressing.
I'm afraid my only means of addressing this issue is how I refer to myself. I refer to myself as a 'software engineer' or sometimes a 'computer engineer' (my degree is in computer engineering). The word 'engineer' still connotes a certain mindset and level of problem solving ability.
The term 'programmer' has become so generalized that it's almost meaningless. I've seen resumes where people described themselves as programmers. Their programming language: Microsoft Office macros. The most blatant offenders in this regard are the so-called 'web programmers', people who think that constructing HTML with little snippets of script consists of programming.
Software Zen: delete this;
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