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Oh, OK. I guess it was just his phrasing that I didn't understand. I had no idea what he meant.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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A full stack is literally just one byte short of a stack overflow error/exception or a nice program crash when it goes undetected. It's also the moment that some helpless kid runs to the stack overflow website and asks confused questions.
It's actually not the kids who I blame for this. They are only the symptom, caused by idiots who teach them that they must not care about what's going on under the hood because some OS/compiler or the ancestor programmers' spirits take care of it much better then they possibly ever could.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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Thank you for the explanation. Internet posts lack a bit of context and can sometimes lead to confusion.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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Isn’t that a cook at Denny’s or IHOP?
If you can't laugh at yourself - ask me and I will do it for you.
modified 29-Aug-20 19:07pm.
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The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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Quote: Is that their way of saying that the developer will be asked to produce more than one person possibly can?
Yes and no... but from my point of view it makes sense.
a.) Small companies
Yes, please one developer should do the whole job
b.) Bigger companies (who can afford three developers)
In case all of them are 'full stack' it is very comfortabale. Means:
- No big discussions/explanations necessary at stack boundaries
- No big problem to exchange them to do different jobs on the stack.
Only my thoughts
It does not solve my Problem, but it answers my question
Chemists have exactly one rule: there are only exceptions
modified 19-Jan-21 21:04pm.
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Probably just copying a buzzword, but ideally, seeking a developer who will take responsibility for the whole application, not say "that's not my job".
Or maybe seeking a scapegoat for a project which has already collapsed under its own weight.
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That means you need to know front end, back end, database and whatever else is out there in the universe. All those "wonderful/you must know/ must have" frameworks, libraries, databases, linters, pre processors, anything that sounds like some animal or demi god you should know. Microservices, Event Straming, Cloud, Zookeeper, Hive, Pig, Kafka, SQL, No-SQL, ES6, React, React Native, Angular, Jest, Jasmin, the list goes on and on. These days you can make up a word and there is a langauge or library with that name you can find in this wonderful univese we live in. Your years of experice is nothing if you don't know the buzzword of the day. It is painful and we the citizen of this universe are the one who keeps creating new things with obscure names and solutions in search of problems. Resistance is futile as new devs are lead to belive you must use all those things or you are not an actual developer.
Zen and the art of software maintenance : rm -rf *
Maths is like love : a simple idea but it can get complicated.
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Richard Andrew x64 wrote: Is that their way of saying that the developer will be asked to produce more than one person possibly can?
Seems so. What you will hear: "You own from start to end. Start thinking as an engineer and not just a developer".
Richard Andrew x64 wrote: I see an enormous number of jobs asking for full stack Engineers developers.
FTFY
Now, along with development, the expectations are to do:
1. QA work
2. Ops work
This movement is shared as 'Shift Left' journey.
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They make up the stack as they go along ... "Yes, but, you're missing xxx from the stack. Sorry". Instead of just asking for a, b, and c.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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It should meant Front End, Back End and Database...
But in Web, front end that means HTML, css, javascript and who knows how many frameworks.
In Windows front end means WinForms and WPF at least.
You better know WCF for both, but especially web.
... Do you know just what a nightmare the cloud represents? You now need to be a systems admin and security chief using an arcane language and methodology of DevOps. Plus the cloud lets you make mistakes that are far more expensive than you used to be able to.
Another cool thing about the cloud... If you get say a Cloud Programmer or Architect certification, you are then trained as a salesperson or evangelist for their expensive services. You haven't learned to develop in the cloud yet.
I like the idea of T shaped skills. That's Full Stack and one skill (or more) that you completely master.
It boggles me to think of the learning curve being asked of anyone going into software development these days.
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Yet my competition in corporations are 'developers' who have attended a six-week programming camp. Their learning curve allows them access to jobs that amount to slave, sub entry level and always abused.
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I don't see it that way. If I was a small company, I would try to employ only a small group of developers with a wide set of skills but without deep specialization. If I was a big company with many developers, I would try to employ specialists with deep knowledge about one particular technical skill each. So it depends on you whether you prefer versatility vs. specialization.
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As other commenters here have stated, the term full-stack developer implies high levels of working experience in a number of connected technologies (ie: front-end development, database).
For reasonable requirements and project sizes, this is not a difficult level of experience to acquire when one merely has to use a quality IDE that provides form and database development capabilities.
However, when one is faced with an increasing number of technologies that now tend to be part of many projects currently, the acquisition of such experience at the same level for all such technologies becomes increasingly impossible.
The result is that most companies have very little idea for what they are asking except for the acquisition of the cheapest personnel, all of whom can spout proper details in an interview while failing to be actually capable of developing entire systems on their own.
As an example, a few weeks ago, an article appeared here on The Code Project regarding the implementation of a certain type of project. The required technologies numbered close to 11 different and separate type of software. Good luck with that!
Today, most developers are expected to know SQL, a major development language, IIS\application server and database configuration and design, good coding practices while being aware of security requirements, documentation capabilities, communication skills, and where necessary a variety of 3rd party tools (ie: jQuery, JavaScript [I will never consider JavaScript a major language.]).
To expect a single person to be competent in all such technologies at the same level of expertise is a pipe dream since no one developer can possibly be developing in all such technologies at equivalent levels of time to acquire such experience.
This is why the loss of true, senior, development personnel in our profession, which is made up of those older people such as myself among others are the ones who do have such experience but are considered too old among other negative attributes towards the older development professionals to be considered for such requirements.
Thus, I have now seen technical leads on projects with only around 3 years of experience. If one is only required to put together a WordPress site such a low level of experience is fine.
Putting together a far more complex development endeavor becomes a completely different story and the 3-year technical lead becomes a liability.
But this is what companies want these days leaving sanguine, sincere, growing developer quality in a complete bind.
And this is why so much software development is a mess today.
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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I can do all these things, and, at 54, I imagine I'm one of the older ones... but I don't like all of them. Especially JavaScript, as you say: Dijkstra would've hated it. It's almost as bad as people... I can do the communications thing, too: it's just a matter of appearing to the masses in a form they can understand... but apparently, this is unusual.
One of my friends who's apparently a "full-stack developer", but who doesn't understand what XOR means, tells me I wouldn't survive five minutes in a modern software house.
This reminded me of a conversation I had with a born-again Christian, who told me that without Christianity, there would be nothing to protect him from the universe. "Ah," I said, "This is why we differ: in my mind, the universe needs protecting from me!"
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Well said, Dan...
And with the way most software developed today, who would want to entertain the idea of working at a software house?
George Carlin said it best; "The planet does not need saving. Its the Humans that do!"
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Thank you for your very good post.
I tend to think of the field being a little like modern medicine. There are general practitioners and specialists.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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You are very welcome...
Thank you for your compliment...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Richard Andrew x64 wrote: It seems to me so because I think companies want to save on IT costs.
You "think" that. Ok. That's insightful.
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dandy72 wrote: You "think" that. Ok. That's insightful.
And your contribution to the discussion is so extremely useful.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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I'd say those are important questions to try to get a feel for during the interview process.
This next bit may be colored by my experience when I was working. Always at small companies where there simply weren't the resources to have hard divisions. So, grain of salt there.
Everyone should be a full-stack developer, to some extent. For example, persistence of your form data shouldn't just be magic . One should understand the transfer to the persistence layer, and enough SQL (If using a db) to validate the save and write decently-efficient queries.
However, to expect the person who's an expert at doing front-end work to also be an expert DBA is a recipe for failure. Sure, most developers (in the MSFT world, anyway) know how to use SQL Server & Profiler to look into the database, and might be able to provide some help on getting things working better. But expecting them to really be tuning the system isn't realistic.
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Exactly. Nobody can have the expertise of a specialist in every technology.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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I am a Full Stack Developer. Apparently 'Senior Software Developer' wasn't hip enough so my job title got changed a couple of years ago, by the same person who wanted to hire 'rock-star developers'.
He no longer works with us.
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My perspective is as a "full stack developer" who sells himself as a "consultant" to small businesses. My clients range from 1-man bands to maybe 30 - 50 staff. IT is an enabler for their business, and very often is actually a key component, but the business itself is not "IT". Management have little or no direct IT knowledge, but they know that they need IT-based solutions. They have minimal budget but know that with the right solution, their business can grow to bigger and better things. Because they have no in-house technical skills, they are unable to "interview" and also unable to provide any form of person specification. They don't know if they need a database, they don't know if they want a cloud-based solution, they don't know if Javascript is involved - because they don't know what any of these terms mean. But down the pub a mate of a mate said the key word to ask for is "full-stack developer". They genuinely do not care about the solution or the technology, so long as it helps their business and grows profits.
As developers, we may ridicule them, pity them, laugh about them or whatever - but at the end of the day, they are using IT in exactly the right way: a tool to help their business - and I respect that.
I tend to get called in when they've not even had a chat with their mate's mate; but "consultant" is a term they can relate to, and accept my advice almost unquestioningly. In return, I build them a system, from start to end, that boosts their business. In most cases, that means their company's budgets increase, and their requirements increase to meet the increased demand. At some point - 6 months, a couple of years, ten years - they outgrow the services I, as a single "consultant", can deliver to them, and they ask how they can grow further. At that point I can direct them to one or more organisations that can provide more specialist skills.
In short, it's not just about saving costs - although any business, of any size, is likely to want to do that. It's about using IT as a "black box" and not needing to know what the individual components of the stack are, or indeed even that there is a "stack".
If you want to work with such companies, sending a CV full of language and framework names and versions will get you nowhere. You need to either give examples of how you have helped the business of other clients / employers, OR (which I find works better) gently ask some questions about their business and the problems it faces, and describe in non-technical terms how you would solve those problems and what impact that will have on their business. Talk to them in terminology that is meaningful to them. Be ready to be their entire IT department. That doesn't mean you have to do everything yourself personally - you can always outsource aspects (especially if you are a contractor / consultant rather than employee) so be ready to do procurement / purchasing / management roles as well as development (unless you genuinely are a full-stack developer and can handle it comfortably yourself).
Personally, I love working this way. The flexibility is great, and no-one stops you from experimenting with new technology and learning new stuff. And when you see your clients' companies grow and thrive, you know it's as a direct consequence of your input. Depending on your financial needs, you can either take that satisfaction as a "top-up" to your fees, or you can negotiate a profits-related bonus or equity. Just make very sure you don't screw up.
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