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When I moved over from C => C++ => web development, I made it a point not to use any of those "frameworks". In fact, I determined to keep the dependence upon the ephemera, i.e., the coming and going latest-and-greatest platforms far away from my work. Maybe a leftover attitude from my 'C' days.
So I use HTML,CSS,PHP, and JavaScript. Period.
And I can have a lot of fun doing it.
New things don't break old things. Setup's a breezed: mainly my working directories and how I like to color-code my text in the editor. Autocomplete is neat - better, generally, then what spell checkers do to me.
Is this a spartan life, or, have I broken through the surface and can breathe clean fresh air? Maybe just a version of cord-cutting.
You've dug a pit and accessorized it. But, no matter how much you pad and decorate the wall, it's still a pit. Climb out. Shove all the platform dirt in like a cat burying its sh*t - and start doing things right. And feel good about it!
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: HTML,CSS,PHP, and JavaScript
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: Is this a spartan life
With those technologies, by definition! 
I use SCSS to ease the pain of CSS, the biggest technological turd ever dropped.
Unfortunately, that requires me to use something to transpile to CSS, a pain, but not nearly as painful as CSS.
In fact, to come back to the other discussion, the fact that CSS exists proves that there is no God, only evil!
Seriously, Crystal Reports is the holy grail of tech compared to CSS 
You're (partly) right though.
I'm now trying to add TinyMCE WYSIWYG editor to my project and it's just pain and frustration with Webpack.
I can't get it to work, even when following the official documentation.
One line of HTML script with CDN and it works great.
Download it for a local fallback and I'm good to go.
Maybe I'll just use Webpack to transpile the SCSS and bundle my own scripts and to copy some stuff from node_modules to wwwroot and then I'll just keep it at that
It really makes you wonder if there really isn't anything better the front-end world has to offer 
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Sander Rossel wrote: It really makes you wonder if there really isn't anything better the front-end world has to offer
That is the question that propagated all of this framework nonsense in the first place. Everyone wants the next bigger and better thing and it leads to a massive snowball careening down a cliff.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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Many years ago I created my personalweb-page using HTML. That's it. Not even any CSS.
A little later I added some CSS.
I have managed to keep that landing page clean HTML/CSS since then and it is so easy to maintain and update when I want to. It works on all browsers the same, no problems with incompatible libraries, frameworks or add-ons because there aren't any.
I was tempted to "upgrade" it recently but managed to resist the impulse - and i 'm very happy with it.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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That's going to be difficult for any web app.
You'll need at least some JavaScript.
And if you're doing vanilla JS with lots of dynamic content, you'll beed A LOT of it and it won't be pretty 
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In the old days there were lots of web pages that were not "web apps".
I had my own "blog" in the fist half of the 1990s, except that the "blog" term wasn't established then. I updated the contents using a plain text editor (I belive it was Brief at that time), and wrote pure HTML, not even CSS.
The text (with images, where appropriate) were the essential thing. You didn't need fancy flashing images and background video to convey your opinions at that time. Yet I had some twenty thousand readers of my Norwegian language blog posts, which was quite a lot in the 1990s. I even was reported to the police for one of them, and had to meet at the police station to proudly declare that I am willing, any day, to stand up in court and defend my right both to have these opinions, and to communicate them to others. I never heard any more from the police.
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Member 7989122 wrote: I even was reported to the police for one of them, and had to meet at the police station
What was it about? 
Member 7989122 wrote: You didn't need fancy flashing images and background video to convey your opinions at that time.
Neither do I, I need inputs and lookups to enter, validate, store and show data.
A WYSIWYG editor so my client can enter rich text including images without having to type HTML.
A connection to a payment system so his customers can pay for rendered services.
Some scheduled tasks to handle automated processing.
This is a business line application, not some blog or personal project.
Needless to say, my client expects he doesn't have to write pure HTML and he'd probably appreciate a little CSS as well
How times have changed
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Sander Rossel wrote: What was it about?
A discussion about various principles for how to decide what can be shown in photographs / drawings / sculpture, illustrated with photos found in books of my parents (dating back to the 1950s), photos from a collection published 1975 of the first three "World Exhibition of Photography", a newspaper front page photo from Tour de France, a pen drawing made by Gustav Vigeland (the artist creating the well known sculpture park in Oslo), a classical painting of Zeus mating the swan Leda, a photo from a book about the human body, a couple photos from a book teaching preschoolers counting...
All of these published and marketed through ordinary commercial channels (although you would have to search used books shops to find them today. I also included a single private photo of my daughter petting our dog at the beach.
Some of the photos are cruel. Like the photo of the TdF biker who lost control and smashed into the concrete wall; streams are running from his head towards the camera, and the text tells that the biker is dying. Or this half rotten child corpse in Bangla Desh, the scavengers have feasted on his body. Or the lynching mob in Budapest, 1956, dragging a man by his feet through the streets until he is dead.
Maybe the photo from a human birth is even more cruel. Or the 1950 photo of two girls being tested by the school nurse for tuberculosis - in those days, you were naked in the office of the school nurse. Or a man an a woman running through the water at the beach. Or of my daughter petting the dog at the beach. Except for the photo of my daughter, they had all been considered acceptable by book publishers / newspaper editors.
Some people were so provoked by my discussion of principles based on this collection of pictures that they called the police's attention to it.
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Member 7989122 wrote: Some people were so provoked by my discussion of principles based on this collection of pictures that they called the police's attention to it.
I guess getting triggered by different opinions is not a new phenomenon! 
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Sander Rossel wrote: This is a business line application, not some blog or personal project. Needless to say, my client expects he doesn't have to write pure HTML and he'd probably appreciate a little CSS as well
Certainly! But in 1995, there were not many business line applications on the Internet!
And I certainly agree that HTML is unfit for human consumption. It is like x64 assembler code: You should not need to see it. But the real world isn't like that: Look in this forum: How do you indicated boldface, italics and underline? I really look forward to the day when I have seen the last HTML, ever. But I am realistic: That probably is the day I have seen anything for the last time.
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Member 7989122 wrote: Certainly! But in 1995, there were not many business line applications on the Internet!
I know, there was barely any internet to begin with
Took me an hour to download a three minute song and during that time we could not make or receive any phone calls.
Not everything was better back in the day
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I've been doing web development since around 2K starting with classic ASP, some PHP, and now .NET WebForms. I avoid most of the problems you described by simply using what I know. I have no need to minify/uglify my JavaScript/css (it's already ugly enough!)...I'm sure there is a benefit to doing so, but it doesn't seem worth the hassle. If someone wants to read/copy my crappy JavaScript/css then have at it! 
The bottom line is that given a choice, I'll always go for the simplest solution possible using a mature and familiar framework/stack. I will avoid third party widgets including jQuery when possible and use the lowest required framework version required. It may not be easier, but it's predictable and I have a slew of personal code/projects to draw from.
Good luck with all that obfuscation!
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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kmoorevs wrote: If someone wants to read/copy my crappy JavaScript/css then have at it!
The benefit to bundling, minifying and uglifying is reduced file size.
For example, I've created arrgh.js, a JavaScript library that brings LINQ to JavaScript.
The file is 2656 lines long and takes up 107 kb.
The minimized file is 9 lines (of which 8 are the license ) and 19 kb.
That's a win of 88 kb or over 80% file size reduction!
You can imagine the gains when you have even more JavaScript.
That will make your web pages load faster and faster loading times also mean faster SEO (and of course a better UX), so for some people it's really important.
Despite the problems I'm having, I wouldn't want to trade
Vue.js is really awesome and it makes working with HTML and JavaScript SO MUCH EASIER.
I hate CSS with the fiery passion of a million suns, so I've been welcoming LESS and now SCSS and SASS.
Bootstrap has been a welcome addition as well since it takes some CSS misery away.
The only problem is getting it all to work 
SCSS/SASS requires transpiling, which requires some front-end framework.
Once it works it mostly works though, and if I wasn't doing this, I'd lost the day doing CSS instead of Webpack.
The difference is that Webpack now works for me, while I still have many days of CSS ahead, which I can now write in SCSS
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Tomorrow I'm leaving for vacation on the island of Texel, sadly the weather forecast is not that good.
Of course after having weeks of beautiful sunny weather
So don't worry if my CodeProject profile will be even lower than usual ...
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Enjoy your time off
See you on your return
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I'm going there in a few weeks.
Sheeps and sand, is what I remember.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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I'll bet you remember the 🐑!
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I'm not from Whales, so no, I don't remember their names 
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Yes, they actually bother to marry them there.
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O'er here, we no judge people about what they do behind closed doors.
Meeeh.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Enjoy the break! 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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I didn't know where it was and had to look it up, so I also looked up the forecast. 12C-13C and windy most of the week. I hope they're wrong.
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As we like to do a lot of biking the weather is quite important to us, otherwise we will have to resort to the pool of the resort as a last resort 
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As the scouts use to say, there is no bad weather, only bad clothing.
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I hope that pool is heated!
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