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Yes, it's usually shorts, but I've also heard the singular to emphasize a single pair. But grass, short was meant as the definition, with short being more of a bonus.
What would you have considered to be the "correct definition"? I didn't realize that before had to be a container indicator. If you can point me to a site that describes these conventions, I'll read it.
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How many of you bounded their future applications to some cloud provider?
Are those applications are for the long therm or more for the middle-short term?
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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Not me
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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actually you've identified one of the major problems so many lazy and reckless developers (system architects and down) are REcreating.
Go back just a few years and before, apps were targeted at platforms, (be it server, client, even infra such as databases). slowly people have come around to platform independence.
supposedly the cloud was meant to further drive platform independence,
- and yeah, at the client level that's mostly true
Well guess what the lazy, reckless (and let's face it therein useless) dev teams are doing now are doing at the provider level.
well (not making this political but it clearly demonstrates the point)
just like the world let China not just dominate but virtually own healthcare manufacturing
idiot dev leads are lowering their nuts right into cloud providers specifities.
nothing wrong with choosing a provider, but develop agnostically.
- should become a test requirement
- "what platform do you target" should cease be a question.
pestilence [ pes-tl-uh ns ] noun
1. a deadly or virulent epidemic disease. especially bubonic plague.
2. something that is considered harmful, destructive, or evil.
Synonyms: pest, plague, CCP
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I think that not only it is platform dependent now again, it is vendor dependent in the worst way...
As with all (most) of the online services we use/buy today there is no guaranties to continuity or backward compatibility maintenance...
Your service terms (toward you clients) are totally dependent on 3rd parties that are unpredictable at the best...
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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This is partly why I haven't leapt into the Cloud: I can see the advantages, but the disadvantages are too huge and numerous to outweigh that.
Maybe in ten years when the dust and hype has settled and we have a "truely agnostic" Cloud it'll be worth it, but at the moment it's a silly move for anything "company significant".
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Call it like it is: You feel too old to learn new stuff...
(I know the feeling  )
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
Mark Twain
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Don't rush in!
Learn to be patient and wait.
... for retirement. (or even better: lucrative legacy app support.)
pestilence [ pes-tl-uh ns ] noun
1. a deadly or virulent epidemic disease. especially bubonic plague.
2. something that is considered harmful, destructive, or evil.
Synonyms: pest, plague, CCP
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I learned on mainframes (too)...
Used to take a bus (or walk about 40 min) to get to city center where in a ugly building there was a computer to actually compile-and-run my program I wrote offline (really offline)...
It was worst than it sounds (bugs actually killed you)...
Cloud remembers me that very same dependency - with very little added value...
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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I don't think so, it just feels like a retrograde step back to the centralized systems (and BOFH) had back before the PC - only without the security that had. All the major cloud suppliers have had (unrelated) data leak / theft problems with other systems, so how do we know that their cloud offerings are any better? And the cheaper ones (which accountants love) are likely to be cheaper for a reason - how secure are they? How solid are the backups? Even the expensive suppliers employ minimum wage workers as much as possible - what are they doing (or willing to do) to supplement their income?
It just looks like a high risk solution for anything important, that security is a total afterthought instead of bullet point one on the PowerPoint design strategy document ... 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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This!
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At some point you need a concrete implementation.
Yes abstractions are good, but at some point you need to actually connect to the repository or service or whatever the interface is for CRUD operations on the data.
At that point there will be a dependency, so while I agree with being as independent as possible at some point there will be a dependency whether it is via some sort of config file or API.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Exactly! 
Not sure what they were meaning.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Not sure what you are getting on about but if I am storing files in Azure storage, it has to be code that works ONLY with Azure storage.  
My logic for picking the files or flagging them as being stored can of course be separate.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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With due respect, why do you think Microsoft and Google are investing so much into the cloud?
You are always going to get business people who are focussed on the tactical, rather than the long term and strategic. . . and they don't care, since once they sold the product, they move to another business.
In other fields it would be called shonky workmanship.
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0.0, and I have not yet reached the lowest intention of ever doing so.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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I have, for the long term, and with good reasons.
I don't get the platform dependence @lopatir is talking about.
I just develop an ASP.NET Core application that I can host on-premises or in the cloud and on Windows or Linux, so what's the deal?
Besides, how is a WinForms or ASP.NET application not platform dependent?
Works on all Windows platforms that support your version of .NET and your database needs at least Windows Server 2012, such freedom, much hosting 
However, I have one client that went from all paper to having an application.
They use the application in the field (like literally fields where they gather hay), so the application has to be available everywhere.
We have two choices, buy a server and install and secure SQL Server and IIS and a Domain Controller(!), something I don't know how to do.
The client is as a-technical as they get, so they can't do it either.
Or put it in the cloud and be done with it, that I can do and it very easy and it costs the client about €50 a month.
Maybe a server would've been cheaper over three years time, but it just isn't worth the hassle in this case.
Another customer has plenty of on-premises servers... That I don't have access to!
Every time I have to do anything I have to call their (external) IT department and plan a day and time.
So, I just put everything in the cloud.
The customer was initially happy because they're now one of the most modern companies in their field, although I think the IT manager isn't as happy anymore because he's a control freak and now that we're on Azure he can't be bothered to learn the cloud, so that's a bit of a black box for him.
They even ended up with two Azure environment because their external IT party created one too that I knew nothing about (while they knew about mine)
Kind of tells you how much the IT manager is on top of it...
Anyway, it also allowed me to use some cloud-only services, like Azure Functions and Logic Apps.
I'm not quite happy with my Functions because they somehow don't work as advertised (but still free), but the Logic Apps are just way easier than coding it yourself.
I've now created a little on-premises app because I really couldn't access their SMTP server in the cloud, but I'm waiting for credentials and someone to give me access.
Too bad, the Logic App would've been a MUCH faster alternative...
I've got another customer coming up who is going to the cloud as well.
Simply because for €50 a month you can't be arsed to setup an on-premises server.
Other than that the cloud offers other benefits, like scaling that you can't get on-premises.
Not for my clients, obviously, but something other companies have to deal with.
I don't have to think about updates, I get free TLS certificates that are automatically refreshed, integration with Azure DevOps and automated deployment is easy.
To me, the cloud is a no-brainer.
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Sander Rossel wrote: I don't get the platform dependence @lopatir is talking about.
I do not think the platform dependency mentioned meant Windows vs Linux... but cloud provider vs cloud provider...
Which is worst, as now you not writing application for OS but for OS hosted at specific cloud provider...
Sander Rossel wrote: We have two choices, buy a server and install and secure SQL Server and IIS and a Domain Controller(!), something I don't know how to do.
It has nothing to do with the cloud application/development - as it is represented by providers - it is simple server/service hosting...
Sander Rossel wrote: Other than that the cloud offers other benefits, like scaling that you can't get on-premises.
Come-on - it may be easier that someone else doing it for you, but that does not mean you can't have with without the cloud...
Sander Rossel wrote: I get free
There are no free meals...
Sander Rossel wrote: To me, the cloud is a no-brainer.
So you already know what you will do when your cloud provider will brake the rules?
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: Come-on - it may be easier that someone else doing it for you, but that does not mean you can't have with without the cloud...
Seriously, the cloud has virtually limitless scaling!
On-premises you would need 200 servers sitting idle most of the time to get that amount of scaling.
For high-availability you can mirror some services on local, regional and zone level, all available for reads, giving you minimum latency all over the world as well as 99.99999999999999% (16 9's) uptime.
You probably don't need that for all your files, but you could create your own CDN for your websites, which you also can't do on-premises.
And it's as easy as selecting an option or moving a slider.
It's crazy to even think you could compete with the cloud on that level.
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: There are no free meals...
Yeah, it's REALLY free (up to 1,000,000 executions and x GB).
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: So you already know what you will do when your cloud provider will brake the rules?
I'll worry about that when the time comes.
Meanwhile, what will you do when your on-premises server has a breaking change or simply just breaks?
At a previous employer, their server just went out of space, good luck with that!
I really don't know what you're getting at or what you're worried about.
My development process hasn't changed, so I'm not "developing for the cloud", I'm just "developing", unless I want to use an Azure specific service like Functions, of course, but that's a choice.
I'm pretty sure I could host my web apps on AWS or GC as well if I wanted to, especially if I used containers, like Docker, but I don't.
I get a feeling you want to see your prejudices confirmed, but I'm not giving you that.
In fact, I don't think anyone who used the cloud will give you that because they're mostly not true.
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Sander Rossel wrote: Seriously, the cloud has virtually limitless scaling!
So that why we had a 4 hours downtime when the pandemic panic started and the North Europe zone couldn't cope with the request...
Sander Rossel wrote: I'll worry about that when the time comes.
Based on the fact that the cloud is a business it may be too late...
To be fair - all those cloud providers has a fantastic host service, no competition their... My problem is not here, but from the point of a developer who plans (has to) to the long run (and I mean 20+ years)...
These cloud solutions are lock you in... You wrote to Nelek that you can - with lost of time - run your application on a fresh install of several servers... It is just not true... If you didn't planed for that specific case, part of your code will just break...
My problem with all around is he way 'fashion' took over the development scene... Every second Monday there is a revelation of the ultimate -one-for-all solution... And I dare the next Monday...
Cloud is good - when it is good, just like everything else... There is no no-brain solution, one have to learn and examine and choose mindfully...
(And just to clarify - the company I work for got a special 'gift' from Microsoft, to spend thousands of hours on Azure, without paying for, to resolve problems we found with the system... These are including legacy applications, same application in/out of Azure, and some others...)
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: There is no no-brain solution, one have to learn and examine and choose mindfully...
Let's put it this way.
Telling my customers to buy a server, hire another party to install it, invest thousands, just to run their application.
Or let me host it for €50 a month on Azure.
That's the no-brainer here
Also, if you were starting from scratch, I'd really consider the cloud (as much cloud native as possible).
When you already have legacy and on-premise environments it's less obvious.
I just really don't agree with the "never cloud" mentality I see here.
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: So that why we had a 4 hours downtime
Yeah, sh*t like that happens.
Happened on our on-premises too though.
I've had a three days outage on an on-premises system, some (third-party) application had to be rewritten for it to work again.
I've seen it with Azure DevOps too, somehow always when we wanted to deploy 
But I've had to wait for hours on a build on an on-premises Jenkins server too.
Never had an outage of my services on Azure though.
People act like everything will always go wrong on the cloud and everything always goes right on-premises, but the truth is outages happen on-premises too and the cloud can have really high uptime just as well.
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We definitely went o the cloud - it is probably the best for our small customers...
However, we have some large (including some that cloud, or anything depends on the internet is just a no-go for them [security]) that already run a huge IT department and not willing to add the cloud to that...
With all this we have one application to sell (lots of parts but one solution), so it must run on all setups from single computer to the cloud... Of course we can not develop different versions to different platforms...
I would say - the right tool...
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: I would say - the right tool...
Exactly, and for my smaller customers, Azure is definitely the right tool.
But the general vibe I got from this thread was that cloud is NEVER the right tool.
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: anything depends on the internet is just a no-go for them [security]
I don't think security has to be an issue in the cloud.
Of course not having any internet access at all is always more secure, but that's rarely possible nowadays.
I had a potential customer (before COVID-19 happened) who wanted to make sure everything kept working during an internet outage, which apparently happens from time to time in his region.
He has a butchery and the meat processing really can't be interrupted during the day because they have a tight schedule.
Obviously, I won't be using the cloud there, if he ever becomes my customer.
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Sander Rossel wrote: I don't think security has to be an issue in the cloud.
These are gov issues - security means something else there...
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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