Welcome to the Lounge

1-Apr-20 22:48

This is going to bring consequences (whether it is real or not). I am not wanting to start a political discussion and I hope you can behave and that it doesn't degenerate to soapbox level.

If you can't avoid it, I will delete the whole thread.

I decide to post it, because it is already circulating in the news of several countries and I have already seen it translated to 3 different languages. It is only a matter of time, that you get to this through other channels.
BREAKING: Salvini Demands Answers – Does a 2015 Italian Documentary Prove the Coronavirus was created in a Chinese Lab? (WATCH) – RAIR[^]
IMPORTANT NOTE: The video goes about A coronavirus, not about THE coronavirus.
The problem is that it is so similar, that the polemic is exploding anyways.

IMPORTANT NOTE 2: Only because they were investigating something similar doesn't mean they are guilty of this pandemia.

I want to bring focus to the: "only because we can doesn't mean that we should"
It is clear that many medical and technological advances are directly connected with dubvious experiments that ended right. But is it always worth the risks? We might do somethings to try to help, but at the end still be the cause of a big evil.

ADDITION:
I am not asking about "if they are involved", My question is more: "Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and that could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?" (more in the line of 12 monkeys[^] or contagion[^]

M.D.V.

If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.

modified 2-Apr-20 5:51am.

5teveH1-Apr-20 23:00

5teveH

1-Apr-20 23:00

If you look hard enough, (particularly on the internet), you will find some prediction/conspiracy theory for every possible event. You also need to bear in mind that TV program makers are more inclined to sensationalism, than facts. I'm betting Nostradamus also predicted it! Smile | :)

den2k881-Apr-20 23:05

1-Apr-20 23:05

That, especially that network. Most programs on Rai3 are crap, they amplify any hoax and sell them as facts. My mother is quite fond of them and I had to spend many unhappy hours debunking all the idiocy they spew regularly about computer security, darknets and so on.

GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X

Nelek1-Apr-20 23:18

1-Apr-20 23:18

den2k88 wrote:
That, especially that network. Most programs on Rai3 are crap, they amplify any hoax and sell them as facts. My mother is quite fond of them and I had to spend many unhappy hours debunking all the idiocy they spew regularly about computer security, darknets and so on.

I wouldn't know that... then I suppose is like our Telecinco
or the newspaper "Bild" in Germany

M.D.V.

den2k881-Apr-20 23:39

1-Apr-20 23:39

Yep, and that's public television for which we pay a mandatory tax to sustain in order to eep it free of advertisements (which is not), free of political manipulation (which is not) and with quality content (again, it is not).

The private tv is even worse, much much worse. And that's another problem: the "cultured" people tend to be biased to what they hear on Rai3...

GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X

Nelek1-Apr-20 23:58

1-Apr-20 23:58

den2k88 wrote:
Yep, and that's public television for which we pay a mandatory tax to sustain in order to eep it free of advertisements (which is not), free of political manipulation (which is not) and with quality content (again, it is not).

The private tv is even worse, much much worse. And that's another problem: the "cultured" people tend to be biased to what they hear on Rai3...

So... more of the same as in Spain.
Years ago the statal 2nd channel was the best. Reportages, Documentaries, other stuff... giving always the impresion of objectivity and well documented.
Nowadays... you can forget it.

1st public Channel an extension of the public relationships of the government. Depressive Sigh | :sigh:

2nd public Channel tries to keep an independant image, but you see that they are under pressure and can't avoid external interferences. Still one of the best channels in comparison

Private channels:
Telecinco - Sensationalism in pure essence. Realities to keep population dumb done with people even dumber
Antena 3 - One political agenda
La sexta - The other political agenda
...

The only channels that still have a "decent" vote from my side are the ones with no news, no moderated programs that only schedule series, films and cartoons. But even they have tons of publicity that end annoying the hell out of you.

M.D.V.

Mark_Wallace2-Apr-20 0:57

Mark_Wallace

2-Apr-20 0:57

All I can say is Thank God for auntie Beeb!

... Which the current alt-right British government wants to turn into The Ministry of Truth[^].

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

W∴ Balboos, GHB2-Apr-20 1:51

W∴ Balboos, GHB

2-Apr-20 1:51

Although I definitely lean to the left, I have to agree that "public television" is far from neutral. It has pretty much been hijacked by the far left.

On the other side, the biggest "News" network in the US, FoxNews, is in fact not a news station, except for a little bit now and then. It is a non-stop opinion platform - and as such, has no accountability for spreading misinformation. It is, after all, just their opinion.

This has been going on long enough where, with entire generation(s) having been brought up as with this as their reality, they gladly swallow their own puke - it's what they want to hear so it must be true. They new all along!

In various forms, opposing opinions are just labeled "fake news" with any number of variations on the name, but in all cases, making ignoring unpleasant truths that much easier.

New and Information is now firmly in the Cult category.

We vs They continues to become, ever more so, WE vs THEY.

Ravings en masse^
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

Nelek2-Apr-20 4:08

2-Apr-20 4:08

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
New and Information is now firmly in the Cult category.

Or in the Mistery section, because it hides from the public and it is not clear anymore Sigh | :sigh:

M.D.V.

Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles

Greg Utas2-Apr-20 5:52

Greg Utas

2-Apr-20 5:52

My problem with US mainstream media is twofold. First, it pretends to be neutral when it's not. In most other countries, newspapers in particular don't pretend that they have no political bias. Most other countries also have state-owned media, so it's pretty obvious where the bias will be there.

Which leads into my second problem. As someone who would like to see governments--particularly federal--cut to a small fraction of their current size, mainstream media comes down on the side of bigger government far more often that not. It's basically an echo chamber for establishment thought, which in the US is either the Welfare-Warfare Party or the Warfare-Welfare Party.

W∴ Balboos, GHB2-Apr-20 6:16

W∴ Balboos, GHB

2-Apr-20 6:16

Basically, although not all wrong, your viewpoint is heavily tainted with that Euro point of view.

Everyone there (and Canada, too?) is always bitching about the US getting involved in everything - but, with the current administration not getting involved I see the EU and it's cronies waiting to see what the US will do.

Maybe if they used their own soldiers and treasure (to pay for these) then they would be seeing the world a bit differently: more cautious about who they support and more willing to act preemptively, instead of pulling yet-another continental Neville Chamberlain. Almost a contradiction. Putin knew full well the EU, etc., wouldn't do anything on their own.

Armies are expensive, and most of the time, IF YOU ARE LUCKY, just sitting on their hands instead of blowing people and things to smaller pieces. Try not having them - and see the Crimea experiment reach all the way to annexing Brussels.

It would be nice if you'd all develop some balls and send navy's to the South China sea. Or - maybe their confiscating both the minerals and the trade routes is just OK with you?

So - in most other countries - saying that they don't pretend to be neutral? Yet they all claim to be telling the truth - implicitly claiming to be neutral, are they not? Maybe your thought that non-US people are somehow more clever in understanding this? That, in and of itself a bias you/they have absorbed and, making you feel good about yourself/themselves, embraced.

I see the rabble protesting (in Euro-Media - the US media ignores way too much) based upon ignorance of the facts - just like everyone else.

The problem with this response is that it really requires some real political opinion and naming names - and that's what the Soapbox was for.

Ravings en masse^
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

Nelek2-Apr-20 6:30

2-Apr-20 6:30

I agree with you in many things, and that's why EU will at the end fall apart.
We are (as much I would like to be wrong) way too many blah blah blah and very few acts.
Besides size is a big factor too, EU is a cumulate of small countries that can't compete with USA or China. As an unit we might have a chance to be there in the big players table. But as the EU now is (sume of all the small parts where everyone has to agree before doing something) has nothing to do.

M.D.V.

Nelek1-Apr-20 23:17

1-Apr-20 23:17

I am not going for the "conspiracy" thread.

I am not pointing to the chinese, and I already said that there are evidences (at least in Germany it is being told so) that it is not the same virus.

The intention of message was to have a debate about the what risks are considered to be acceptable just for the sick of "science"

The lab responsibles already said that they were just mixing things and creating a new variation just to see how it would behave. As it was not enough with natural mutations, that we have to interfere and do silly things that can explode in our face.

M.D.V.

Johnny J.1-Apr-20 23:28

Johnny J.

1-Apr-20 23:28

Nelek wrote:
there are evidences (at least in Germany it is being told so) that it is not the same virus.

Perhaps, but isn't that what you could expect to be told in any case?

It IS a bit of a coincidence, though, that Chinas ONLY Category 4[^] biolab is situated in Wuhan, don't you think?

However, I doubt that the Chinese would be stupid enough to create a virus and release it right outside their own lab, no matter what the intention might be, but even if the virus is not created, they could have been studying it and accidentally have let it out?!?! Unsure | :~

Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-
Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
Mark Twain

modified 2-Apr-20 5:34am.

Nelek1-Apr-20 23:37

1-Apr-20 23:37

Johnny J. wrote:
I doubt that the [ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WITH THAT KIND OF TECH] would be stupid enough to create a virus and release it outside their own lab, but even if the virus is not created, they could have been studying it and accidentally have let it out?!?!

That's my point... the risks of such investigations.
I do see the potential good that can be done, but I see too the potential danger of them too.

I am not saying that did it deliberatelly, all can be an accident. An unexpected mutation, an unexpected mix, an accidental problem with contention, whatever...

Murphy's laws are bitches, and we know it. But we still keep forcing the boundaries and testing them to the limit.

There have been so much science fiction with plausible "end of the worlds" enough to at least trigger a debate. But it is never really done in all levels, so things continue without changes. Being careful brings no $$$

M.D.V.

Johnny J.2-Apr-20 21:43

Johnny J.

2-Apr-20 21:43

Nelek wrote:
I am not pointing to the chinese, and I already said that there are evidences (at least in Germany it is being told so) that it is not the same virus.

To continue from yesterday: You should definitely watch this video[^] which I was only made aware of today... OMG | :OMG:

Nelek3-Apr-20 3:55

3-Apr-20 3:55

There are several videos with conspiracy theories.
Some saying it was an accident.
Some saying it was deliveratelly, to buy stocks of companies when the crash came.
Some saying it was the USA who released it in china to accuse them afterwards.
some saying...

But leaving the conspiracies apart.

One thing that I do consider true is that they should have told it before, maybe the effects worldwide could have been less dramatic.
And another think I don't really believe (but this is only my opinion), that the numbers don't match. I think the number of affected and specially the number of deads is much higher that the official statistics are giving.
I have information of expats living there for many years and have seen myself many asiatic countries... medical service is by far not that effective (at least not for the average joe, if you have money then is another thing), anyways... 3.9% deaths while in several west countries over 6%... I don't buy it.

M.D.V.

RossMW2-Apr-20 8:55

RossMW

2-Apr-20 8:55

Yeah I read that on the internet too

A Fine is a Tax for doing something wrong
A Tax is a Fine for doing something good.

den2k881-Apr-20 23:01

1-Apr-20 23:01

It has already been debunked, they were experimenting to understand how this family of virusses mutates and passes between bats, known originators of this virus, and humans.

If you can understand that, you have more weapons to find a way to block / cure / avoid it.

It's like reproducing a fault in order to understand its causes and fix the defect at its root.

PS: Politics notwithstanding, Salvini ain't bright at all and he's quite a jackal, would use anything to gain some political leverage, especially if it involves xenophobia.

GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X

Nelek1-Apr-20 23:22

1-Apr-20 23:22

den2k88 wrote:
It has already been debunked,

I say it myself in the message. A not THE

My intention with the message is more in direction:

den2k88 wrote:
they were experimenting to understand how this family of virusses mutates and passes between bats, known originators of this virus, and humans.
If you can understand that, you have more weapons to find a way to block / cure / avoid it.
It's like reproducing a fault in order to understand its causes and fix the defect at its root.

Exactly this is my point. And although I see (and share) your logic and the possible benefits, the risks of exploding in your face can be very high. I.e. "DDT"

I do know that many advances originated in such kind of experiments, but does this always justify the "playing god" and "fvck the world" thinking of some scientists?

M.D.V.

den2k881-Apr-20 23:36

1-Apr-20 23:36

Nelek wrote:
does this always justify the "playing god" and "fvck the world" thinking of some scientists?

Honestly, I only ever saw this kind of scientist in B-series movies, and I happen to know a lot of scientists, including people working on the LHC in Switzerland.

Not researching dangerous stuff means that it will remain dangerous. Considering that the strain they were working on is not the one in circulation it means that there were not safety breaches. So exactly where's the problem?

Would it be cool to stop the work of those that are trying to come up with the vaccine for this virus? Because their job involves exactly inducing mutation on the virus, studying its evolution, exposing it to chemicals and radiations, seeing if they can mutate it enough to make it not dangerous, not infective yet similar enough to help build anticorps for it.

They are experimenting with dangerous stuff in order to make it no longer dangerous. Just because they were eorking proactively doesn't mean they are the root of all evil.

GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X

Nelek1-Apr-20 23:43