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Nelek1-Apr-20 23:17

1-Apr-20 23:17

I am not going for the "conspiracy" thread.

I am not pointing to the chinese, and I already said that there are evidences (at least in Germany it is being told so) that it is not the same virus.

The intention of message was to have a debate about the what risks are considered to be acceptable just for the sick of "science"

The lab responsibles already said that they were just mixing things and creating a new variation just to see how it would behave. As it was not enough with natural mutations, that we have to interfere and do silly things that can explode in our face.

M.D.V.

If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
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Johnny J.1-Apr-20 23:28

Johnny J.

1-Apr-20 23:28

Nelek wrote:
there are evidences (at least in Germany it is being told so) that it is not the same virus.

Perhaps, but isn't that what you could expect to be told in any case?

It IS a bit of a coincidence, though, that Chinas ONLY Category 4[^] biolab is situated in Wuhan, don't you think?

However, I doubt that the Chinese would be stupid enough to create a virus and release it right outside their own lab, no matter what the intention might be, but even if the virus is not created, they could have been studying it and accidentally have let it out?!?! Unsure | :~

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modified 2-Apr-20 5:34am.

Nelek1-Apr-20 23:37

1-Apr-20 23:37

Johnny J. wrote:
I doubt that the [ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WITH THAT KIND OF TECH] would be stupid enough to create a virus and release it outside their own lab, but even if the virus is not created, they could have been studying it and accidentally have let it out?!?!

That's my point... the risks of such investigations.
I do see the potential good that can be done, but I see too the potential danger of them too.

I am not saying that did it deliberatelly, all can be an accident. An unexpected mutation, an unexpected mix, an accidental problem with contention, whatever...

Murphy's laws are bitches, and we know it. But we still keep forcing the boundaries and testing them to the limit.

There have been so much science fiction with plausible "end of the worlds" enough to at least trigger a debate. But it is never really done in all levels, so things continue without changes. Being careful brings no $$$

M.D.V.

Johnny J.2-Apr-20 21:43

Johnny J.

2-Apr-20 21:43

Nelek wrote:
I am not pointing to the chinese, and I already said that there are evidences (at least in Germany it is being told so) that it is not the same virus.

To continue from yesterday: You should definitely watch this video[^] which I was only made aware of today... OMG | :OMG:

Nelek3-Apr-20 3:55

3-Apr-20 3:55

There are several videos with conspiracy theories.
Some saying it was an accident.
Some saying it was deliveratelly, to buy stocks of companies when the crash came.
Some saying it was the USA who released it in china to accuse them afterwards.
some saying...

But leaving the conspiracies apart.

One thing that I do consider true is that they should have told it before, maybe the effects worldwide could have been less dramatic.
And another think I don't really believe (but this is only my opinion), that the numbers don't match. I think the number of affected and specially the number of deads is much higher that the official statistics are giving.
I have information of expats living there for many years and have seen myself many asiatic countries... medical service is by far not that effective (at least not for the average joe, if you have money then is another thing), anyways... 3.9% deaths while in several west countries over 6%... I don't buy it.

M.D.V.

RossMW2-Apr-20 8:55

RossMW

2-Apr-20 8:55

Yeah I read that on the internet too

A Fine is a Tax for doing something wrong
A Tax is a Fine for doing something good.

den2k881-Apr-20 23:01

den2k88

1-Apr-20 23:01

It has already been debunked, they were experimenting to understand how this family of virusses mutates and passes between bats, known originators of this virus, and humans.

If you can understand that, you have more weapons to find a way to block / cure / avoid it.

It's like reproducing a fault in order to understand its causes and fix the defect at its root.

PS: Politics notwithstanding, Salvini ain't bright at all and he's quite a jackal, would use anything to gain some political leverage, especially if it involves xenophobia.

GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X

Nelek1-Apr-20 23:22

1-Apr-20 23:22

den2k88 wrote:
It has already been debunked,

I say it myself in the message. A not THE

My intention with the message is more in direction:

den2k88 wrote:
they were experimenting to understand how this family of virusses mutates and passes between bats, known originators of this virus, and humans.
If you can understand that, you have more weapons to find a way to block / cure / avoid it.
It's like reproducing a fault in order to understand its causes and fix the defect at its root.

Exactly this is my point. And although I see (and share) your logic and the possible benefits, the risks of exploding in your face can be very high. I.e. "DDT"

I do know that many advances originated in such kind of experiments, but does this always justify the "playing god" and "fvck the world" thinking of some scientists?

M.D.V.

den2k881-Apr-20 23:36

den2k88

1-Apr-20 23:36

Nelek wrote:
does this always justify the "playing god" and "fvck the world" thinking of some scientists?

Honestly, I only ever saw this kind of scientist in B-series movies, and I happen to know a lot of scientists, including people working on the LHC in Switzerland.

Not researching dangerous stuff means that it will remain dangerous. Considering that the strain they were working on is not the one in circulation it means that there were not safety breaches. So exactly where's the problem?

Would it be cool to stop the work of those that are trying to come up with the vaccine for this virus? Because their job involves exactly inducing mutation on the virus, studying its evolution, exposing it to chemicals and radiations, seeing if they can mutate it enough to make it not dangerous, not infective yet similar enough to help build anticorps for it.

They are experimenting with dangerous stuff in order to make it no longer dangerous. Just because they were eorking proactively doesn't mean they are the root of all evil.

GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X

Nelek1-Apr-20 23:43

1-Apr-20 23:43

den2k88 wrote:
I happen to know a lot of scientists, including people working on the LHC in Switzerland.

I do know people working in big pharma companies or investigating in universties labs too. My wife, some relatives and big number of friends are doctor med. in different specialities.

den2k88 wrote:
They are experimenting with dangerous stuff in order to make it no longer dangerous. Just because they were eorking proactively doesn't mean they are the root of all evil.

I am not saying they are evil.

den2k88 wrote:
Because their job involves exactly inducing mutation on the virus, studying its evolution, exposing it to chemicals and radiations, seeing if they can mutate it enough to make it not dangerous, not infective yet similar enough to help build anticorps for it.

I know, and it is a big potential good if the study end correctly, this is clear for me too.
But mutations are a two sided sword and Murphy's laws are bitches. You never know what is going to be the end result, and that's part of my argument.

M.D.V.

KarstenK1-Apr-20 23:09

KarstenK

1-Apr-20 23:09

The intention could be for scientific research or even an accident. Like happened with the killer bees.

Some Sorcerer's Apprentice could have mad a "bug".

So my answer is a strong "maybe". Unsure | :~

Press F1 for help or google it.
Greetings from Germany

Nelek1-Apr-20 23:29

1-Apr-20 23:29

I was not asking about "if they are involved", My question is more: "Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?"

M.D.V.

Mark_Wallace2-Apr-20 0:51

Mark_Wallace

2-Apr-20 0:51

Nelek wrote:
Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?

You mean like animal and plant "husbandry", where:

• Pigs are bred to be fatter and fatter, until they can barely move?

• Dogs are bred to the point where they can't give birth without human intervention?

• Apples are bred for sweetness, to the point where they're basically sugar water, and less healthy than a bag of crisps (Leftpond "chips")?

• Wheat is bred for yield, to the point where 40% of people have at least a mild allergy to it?

Nah, it's not evil.

It's just f***ing greedy and stupid, so, given it's led by the greed and stupidity of humans, don't expect it to ever stop.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

Nelek2-Apr-20 6:38

2-Apr-20 6:38

Mark_Wallace wrote:
It's just f***ing greedy and stupid, so, given it's led by the greed and stupidity of humans, don't expect it to ever stop.

I am not expecting it at all.
I have already used the money and the human stupidity in some other messages below.

M.D.V.

KarstenK2-Apr-20 3:38

KarstenK

2-Apr-20 3:38

ofcourse and i provided an example. A lot of "bio invasion" is changing the nature ...

Press F1 for help or google it.
Greetings from Germany

OriginalGriff1-Apr-20 23:09

1-Apr-20 23:09

Casting blame - founded or unfounded - helps no-one. Fix the problem, then work out how it happened and institute procedures to prevent it happening again.

But sensationalist finger pointing by non-scientists just muddies the waters and reduces cooperation at the time it is most needed.

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
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Nelek1-Apr-20 23:26

1-Apr-20 23:26

I am not trying to finger-point. I wanted to have a conversation about the "only because we can it doesn't mean we should"

There have been a couple of messages saying we can have a nice conversation in the lounge. I was trying to give a shot.
I give you that the topic was very probably not the best selection, I just thought this way there would be more participation.

I obviously was wrong Sigh | :sigh:

M.D.V.

OriginalGriff1-Apr-20 23:38

1-Apr-20 23:38

I didn't mean to imply you were - I meant the "journalist" who produced the original material.

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
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Nelek1-Apr-20 23:46

1-Apr-20 23:46

Fair enough.

Sadly sensationalism is sometimes the only thing that starts speaking about something. Afterwards some other sources with a bit more common sense join in (and that was my target, see what people here I consider intelligent can say about)

M.D.V.

Slacker0072-Apr-20 1:11

Slacker007

2-Apr-20 1:11

are you sure you are not a politician? Confused | :confused:

OriginalGriff2-Apr-20 1:25

2-Apr-20 1:25

That is one of the vilest things anyone has ever said about me! Dead | X|

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
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Slacker0072-Apr-20 1:31

Slacker007

2-Apr-20 1:31

well, you can report me and I can get banned for good this time. D'Oh! | :doh:

OriginalGriff2-Apr-20 1:32

2-Apr-20 1:32

Nah ... sticks and stones, and all that! Big Grin | :-D

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
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OriginalGriff2-Apr-20 1:34

2-Apr-20 1:34

Anyway, how could I possibly be a politician? Ignoring that I have a spine, I answer questions! Laugh | :laugh:

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
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