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RugbyLeague wrote: I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools...
So, nothing is new...this is what we do right? Maybe a vacation is in order? Cheers 
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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I woke up and found myself in the Era of Developers fighting with tools other than working on the solution!
I'd really like to know how real programming was like back then, maybe, individually, as Java Maniac, can contribute to it! 
<£dward>~c0d£~
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Well, I worked on COBOL/Fortran/PL1 systems on minis (TI and Prime) - there were no frameworks or anything like that on those computers - you had the language, a screen package and an ISAM package - no Google so you had the various manuals (in the case of PL/1 on the Prime we didn't have a manual so I taught myself looking at the Primos source code) - we had Emacs with Peel (emacs lisp on the prime) which was about the only difficult tool to get to grips with)
Of course since then I have used C, C++, C# and various languages of my own design
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Try living with the massive source control nightmare IBM Irrational Clear Case. 
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RugbyLeague wrote: I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution.
Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
Rugby, you're not alone here. The programming field has gotten very confusing and is, in many ways, a pain-in-the-ass.
The gig I'm on ought to last another 5 or so years. (I'm the SME for a product that's being phased out). I've been at this for nearly 40 years now. (I'm 56). I have developed my own technology for developing products for Windows desktop, mainly. (Yeah I can do a little web development, but nothing approaching what I can do on the desktop). It's based around the 2008 version of Visual Studio and a few other tools. Like you, I'm sick of fiddling with the tools and all the attendant upgrades, etc. What I have in my toolbox is it, as far as I'm concerned. When they stop working (unlikely, Microsoft desktop ain't going anywhere) then I'll just go drive a bus or work in my wood shop.
I still love programming: I write some applications for my own use (I've developed a nice budgeting system and some other things) and I am automating the co-op farm we're involved in (in exchange for our share). I do have a couple other "products" under development but whether I ever market and sell them or not ... who knows? Having fun doing that. As a "career", though, I really think I'm through with it. I've discovered life recently. Even bought a motorcycle which I've wanted to do for years and am spending more and more time in my woodworking shop.
We've paid off everything except the house and we're working on that. I think there's life after programming, though as I said, I still love doing it but in a more relaxed way when I feel like it.
-CB
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Sounds like you have it pretty much sorted.
My wife is talking about us buying a small holding and running a campsite - we are vintage VW bus owners - so that would be a good option.
I will still program, I enjoy programming language design and compiler writing so would keep my eye in with that
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CB.. WOW!.. I could have written your EXACT reply ! I'm 54, sounds like I do a *litte* more web work than you do, however same here (winding down, bought a motorcycle, paying it all off, *finally* doing some LIFE stuff after a 35 year career in computers! )
To Ruby, I agree with quite afew here, change it up, do something FOR YOU in programming. Get it lighter and on a dev cycle that YOU like and get back to enjoying what you like to do - with out the hassles. And scale it back to enjoing it... not sweating over it.
I have tossed out MANY of the tools and issues that frustrate me, and started enjoying simpicity of *programming* instead of hacking everything to get it all working.
--C
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"Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together."
Totally agree.
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Yay
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I feel the same way.
If I have to work with the web to be viable I'd rather change careers entirely. That and I've seen too many really great technologies abandoned on a whim (Silverlight) - I cannot be expected to learn an entirely new set of tools/frameworks/IDEs every time someone at Microsoft/Apple/Oracle/etc. gets an upset stomach.
I won't miss this at all.
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I never used Silverlight but I have used WPF extensively (without, shock horror, MVVM) and loved it - hopefully it can be revived
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I have a 3 year plan as well, though it may take 4. After we pay off the student loans, we are going to live in the woods. We've been spending lots of energy learning to do it correctly, so we can enjoy life.
I'm tired of the whole rat race.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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Do not give up, you are only in the wrong scope.
If you don't like web don't do web.
If you don't like mobile don't do mobile.
If you don't like cloud don't do cloud.
There is so much to be done up there, no need to follow the crowd.
You want to get love of programming back ? come join us to build stuff around Bitcoin.
I am serious, by learning about it you'll find again your love for programming coming back in no time.
modified 19-Sep-14 9:08am.
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I only agree with you in the fact that web development is a step backwards. To me it's like returning to the dumb terminal time but putting lights and hacks to that terminal so that the user has a "better experience".
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Dude, take it from a grizzled old timer, these problems run in cycles.
As much as I like the idea of less competition, I dislike the thought of anyone leaving programming even more.
Bad bosses, bad organizations, bad practices all get recognized as bad, given enough time.
A place where I suffered all of the above, eventually had me a happy man, I outlived all the problems.
True, the bad cycle started up again and I'm no longer there, but your career is never going to be linear. There will be ups and downs.
Hang in there, or hang somewhere else, but stay true to programming.
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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RugbyLeague wrote:
There, I fixed it. 
Thank you though.
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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BrainiacV wrote: Bad bosses, bad organizations, bad practices all get recognized as bad, given enough time.
Unfortunately, that time is often after the company/division has been shut down.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Programming positions don't actually involve that much programming anymore. It's a lot of politicking, and other trash. The code we actually write is quick, clean, and easy especially wiht the tools these days. So that means I spend very little time actually writing code, and the rest of the time being an office worker.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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I agree -- it's an awful situation: however, there's a little tune you can whistle to make it all better. Here: sing along with me:
"Remember you're a whore
Remember you're a whore
When life becomes a bore
Remember you're a whore"
...and so on.
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As in tipping the service staff, be it at a hotel or at a restaurant.
I am not a tight-wad with my money, so if you are busting your ass to make my stay at a hotel better, or my experience at a restaurant better, then you will get a nice tip. If the service was poor, then I will speak to the person or their manager about it, but I will still leave them a tip, just not as much as I normally would leave.
I never understood why people don't tip, just out of principal.
Side note: I recently learned that most establishments in Japan for instance, don't accept tips; its a cultural thing.
Your thoughts on this?
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If there is a service charge levied on the bill, I won't tip unless the service charge is removed.
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I really dislike service charges. One of my favourite restaurants did that one day. The result - it completely lost its edge and the standard of service fell off a cliff.
I think the British is general need to be pretty annoyed to ask to have the service charge removed.
Regards,
Rob Philpott.
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Rob Philpott wrote: I think the British is general need to be pretty annoyed to ask to have the service charge removed.
Are you kidding. I work myself right the way up to a disapproving tut.
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Because people are being paid to do a job and the company should be paying the inviduals relative the standard they expect in the hotel/establishment. Some middle/high class hotels do not permit tipping.
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