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Hi
Im not insulting you.
I am questioning a blithe acceptance of sloppyness. I do understand how the site works. I do understand that most, if not all of the contributions are voluntary and of course I thank very much the diligently produced articles. Nether-the-less if St Johns Ambulance People tied a bandage around a leg to fix a broken arm then we would have the right to raise a point and to comment on it without being told, hey, this brigade is voluntary therefore stop moaning.
That is what I am arguing about, and I will always argue against intraction.
Thanks for your reply
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RayH1066 wrote: Nether-the-less if St Johns Ambulance People tied a bandage around a leg to fix
a broken arm then we would have the right to raise a point and to comment on it
without being told, hey, this brigade is voluntary therefore stop moaning.
First Lifeboats now St. Johns Ambulance.
You're in the wrong place my friend. You need the Forum for developers where every contributer is trained at great expense and provided with the best tools and equipment specifically to help sort out your programming issues. A forum where people work specific shifts so that whenever you have a programming emergency there's someone on call ready and able to help you.
CodeProject is a community, it is not an emergency service that trains it's contributors to dig you out of a hole every time you find you can't get some line of code to work.
I'll say again what I've said already, if you have a problem with the standards on CodeProject, then raise those standards by actually Posting an article, or answering the questions that people post. Provide some succint answers that sort out peoples troubles using code that they are guaranteed to understand.
If you can't do that then stop demanding that others do it for you.
-Richard
Hit any user to continue.
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If only I could vote 10.
Why is common sense not common?
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level where they are an expert.
Sometimes it takes a lot of work to be lazy
Individuality is fine, as long as we do it together - F. Burns
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Yes. Because you personally dont seem to accept that I have a point. If you care to read most of the replies you will that they do indeed recognise that problems can occur. You on the otherhand dont seem to like the fact that I have raised this point, why I dont know, and neither do you want me to have a view.
You seem bombastic in nature, and tunnelled vision so by use of illustrations I am trying to paint a simple picture so that you can see what many of the others appear to see. They don't necessaily think it is an issue but they at least see my point. You on the other hand are walking around in blinkers and are trying to encourage me to so so to.
As too using this forum to find answers to problems I might be having? Are you saying this isn't for seeking solutions to problems?
Emmm... Now you really have me worried? Is it me in the wrong place or you?
Good luck.
I suggest you dont read this thread if it offends you so much.
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RayH1066 wrote: Im not insulting you.
You question whether I have read your comments, I quote "should you care to read them", and accuse me of having a closed mind. I don't know where you come from but most countries I have lived in would consider that insulting.
RayH1066 wrote: I am questioning a blithe acceptance of sloppyness.
I don't accept it any more than you do, and challenge it when I see it. My comment, had you cared to read it was merely pointing out that with a self regulated site like The CodeProject, it is impossible to check every article and every code download to ensure that it will work out of the box for every one of the 7,000,000 plus members. Those of us with sufficient reputation points spend quite a bit of our time doing peer reviews of articles and plenty of them get rejected before they can be published. But we cannot guarantee to catch every one and we certainly don't have time to download, build and test every contribution. If you go and look at the articles that have been published you will see plenty that got past the first hurdle but receive some fairly strong criticism if the membership does not feel the standard is high enough, or if the content is full of bugs.
The best things in life are not things.
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Thank you for your response.
I was pleased to see your detailed reply. Thank you for that. My point then is all the more valid isn't it. If you and others have to spend so much time validating articles etc then a plea to the authors is just what is needed. Thank you for agreeing with me.
As a user, I appreciate any efforts made to receive sound information, and I repeat, based on your answer, I am right to ask authors to take a little care. Of course I appreciate their efforts, but I appreciate their efforts even more when the article 'works', and yes, I am one of those people who do make donations to sites which receive their funding that way! I do appreciate help, but I also reserve the right to make observations when it doesn't appear to work.
Blaming the authors for their errors and stating that Code Projects cannot 'control the content posted' is understood but nether-the-less because the items (I'm refering to old, maybe out of date examples etc) are posted on the site it does actually make it the responsibility of whomsoever is in overall control of the site to accept a form of responsibility?
I appreciate knowledgeable answers, your last was more informative and contains good points. Thank you
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I have tried to refrain from this but I can't stand it.
RayH1066 wrote: mine is very open and fair minded and evenly levelled and I do understand all the problems wyhicfh can and do beset forums - see some of my answers
No as a matter of fact it is not. None of your posts allow for the possibility that your attitude is part of the problem. Most of us are well aware of the issues that you raised but you refuse to understand how things work in the real world. You do not for a minute allow for the possibility that the author that wrote some offending article does not have that particular email address and is not getting the notifications on his article, that maybe they have a real job, they are not interested in programming anymore and just don't want to take the time to get back into it. There are all kinds of reasons that authors are not responding to you but, according to you, they should be monitoring the internet 24/7 in case someone had a question?
RayH1066 wrote: maybe there is a point here
I have not yet found a reply to anything you said that indicated that you do not have a point. What I have seen is people making futile attempts to explain to you how this and other site work. What I have not seen is anything from you proposing a solution to whatever it is that you are looking for. Your wanting to make authors conform to some standard is all well and good but how are you going to enforce that? There are many, many, many people out there that throw articles together just so they can brag that they wrote an article. What should we do with them? Should we make everyone have an internet posting license? What you are apparently hoping for is some revolution of righteous indignation that people that post articles on the internet are not policed and that everyone will drop everything that they are doing to fix the internet. The people that run this site are doing the best that they can. Nowhere did I see you volunteering to correct all of the mistakes that you have found as an unpaid tester, editor, proofreader.
Are there problem with articles? Yes. Are the authors human? Yes. Will there be mistakes? Yes. What exactly you have us do? You are mistakenly expecting non-professional authors to write articles as if they know exactly what you are looking for and write it such that you can understand it. I have a real job that pays me real money. If I am going to spend my time policing articles then I can't do my real job. How will I pay my bills then?
RayH1066 wrote: There was once a train company in the dear old USA that was going bust. The Directors could not see how to halt the decline in rail users and were wringing their hands in desperation. Along came a clever chap who in stead of defending the general state of all the rail links in the USA he looked at the companies articles and saw that they had declared themselves to be a transport company. To his mind that included, space craft, buses, cars, bikes, motorcyles, skateboards etc. The company , went, oh, oh, oh, and changed lol and hehold a bit of creative thinking and willingness to accept that there is an laternaitive view / point/ etc and there fortunes turned good.
What exactly does that have to do with anything?
RayH1066 wrote: Closed minds are destructive.
Yes they are. Try opening yours to the possibility that others are not as apparently perfect as you are.
RayH1066 wrote: Good day to you
Thank you! And a good day to you too!
Why is common sense not common?
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level where they are an expert.
Sometimes it takes a lot of work to be lazy
Individuality is fine, as long as we do it together - F. Burns
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THank you. At last we are looking at the situation and not just reacting to a point you sisnt like. Thank you for your response.
I make you this promise. When one day I am able to valid other peoples work I will gladly volunteer my time to this site! At the moement I darent do that because my knowledge is too limited to be off use, so trying to tear me off astrip because I havent done that shows that you havent understood the situation? I did try to help someone who had a problem the other week which I could sort of answer but my experience of answering such things was not sufficient enough to convince the chap that I had offered a solution, so, no, at this time I must for the salke of your users decline.
If you have read all the replies you will see that actually a number directly or indirectly have agreed with me. You will also see that I do understand the workings of the site, A couple of comments even put forward a possible 'remedy'. Interesting.
Thank you
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I did wite a long response to you. First of all thank you for agreeing with me. I am a bit confused as to why you so venimently dont want to admit that there are problems occasionaly and why tyou dislked so much that I asked for working examples and why you object to my making use of the site to find working examples so that I can furthr my knowledge. Still, that is your problem not mine, thank god.
If I could contribute in a meaningful way I would, but I am a newbie, I think I've made that very clear, so I cant see how I can be of use in looking at articles pre publishing, thererfore I am surprised at that suggstion? Clearly you havent understood my situation. AS to everyone is busy etc and changes of circumstamces etc I do agree with you, but you are giving reasons why something shouldn't change while admitting that ideally they should. Mu snippets to you was showing you that I recognise that viewpoint but dont agree with it. I dont think we will agree on that point so I will leave it, for now.
Of course if I can contribute I would / will, but for the life of me I can't see anyone wanting advise/ help etc from someone with a very limited knowledge of a particular subject.
I am willing to help test the odd page pre publishing if such an article is within my knowledge base? So, there is a noffer, but I susspect it will not be taken up.
I use vs2008 on windows 7 with sql2005. I cant get my head around iis and I also have wamp. I use occsionally photoshop cs4 and illustrator cs4, so circulate that and if I can be of assistance then soemone can let me know.
My concern with touring forums that hold 'solutionsa' etc and for those solutions to fails is that like you I am busy, very busy, and being self employed spending weeks trying bad solution after bad solution I lose my salary because I cannot bill that time, hence a grwoing frustration because I am encountering across the web more and more defunct solutions. It is no one individuals fault, and it is obvious that it situation would evolve when the artivcles are housed on someoneleses server, I do understand, but that doesnt make it helpful to users to come especially as this problem will grow, and it will grow by factors.
Thank you
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RayH1066 wrote: I am a bit confused as to why you so venimently dont want to admit that there are problems occasionaly and why tyou dislked so much that I asked for working examples and why you object to my making use of the site to find working examples so that I can furthr my knowledge.
You can be confused all you want. Where did I ever say that? Hmm? Can't answer that one can you? Can you not read? Or can you read but not comprehend? Is English not your native language? Now you are just acting very much the troll. And that is your problem not mine.
Why is common sense not common?
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level where they are an expert.
Sometimes it takes a lot of work to be lazy
Individuality is fine, as long as we do it together - F. Burns
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I suggest you read this....... tell me ehy my simple statement has caused you so much personal grief. Wow you really live in a asmall world if my observation has caused you so much bitterness. Prat
No as a matter of fact it is not. None of your posts allow for the possibility that your attitude is part of the problem. Most of us are well aware of the issues that you raised but you refuse to understand how things work in the real world. You do not for a minute allow for the possibility that the author that wrote some offending article does not have that particular email address and is not getting the notifications on his article, that maybe they have a real job, they are not interested in programming anymore and just don't want to take the time to get back into it. There are all kinds of reasons that authors are not responding to you but, according to you, they should be monitoring the internet 24/7 in case someone had a question?
RayH1066 wrote:
maybe there is a point here
I have not yet found a reply to anything you said that indicated that you do not have a point. What I have seen is people making futile attempts to explain to you how this and other site work. What I have not seen is anything from you proposing a solution to whatever it is that you are looking for. Your wanting to make authors conform to some standard is all well and good but how are you going to enforce that? There are many, many, many people out there that throw articles together just so they can brag that they wrote an article. What should we do with them? Should we make everyone have an internet posting license? What you are apparently hoping for is some revolution of righteous indignation that people that post articles on the internet are not policed and that everyone will drop everything that they are doing to fix the internet. The people that run this site are doing the best that they can. Nowhere did I see you volunteering to correct all of the mistakes that you have found as an unpaid tester, editor, proofreader.
Are there problem with articles? Yes. Are the authors human? Yes. Will there be mistakes? Yes. What exactly you have us do? You are mistakenly expecting non-professional authors to write articles as if they know exactly what you are looking for and write it such that you can understand it. I have a real job that pays me real money. If I am going to spend my time policing articles then I can't do my real job. How will I pay my bills then?
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As you can see at the top of the page this site has thousands of active members, many of whom post articles of varying quality. Since the CodeProject relies on the community to do its QA checking, and most of us do not have the time to check the code of every article that is posted, we can only rely on the authors to have done their testing properly. If you do come across an article which has buggy or unusable code then please use the forum at the bottom of the article to alert the author. Any author worth his salt will fix it fairly promptly; those that don't will soon be voted to oblivion.
The bottom line is that if you are getting free code and documentation then you really have to accept that there is no guarantee of quality; if you want guarantees then you will need to pay.
The best things in life are not things.
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Thank you. I don't disagree with you, I find the idea of such repositories invaluable and I would not want that to stop - but at the same time I must disagree with you.
If, like my experience today - I have already as asked the author for help - no response yet - the site then appears to provide nothing in the way of knowledge. That situation can turn a user off, and maybe away from the site, so the issue is an important one.
I raised the point because I've tried 15 articles from your site and 2 worked and I thanked the authors accordingly. It is the problems experienced when they don't, because as a 'newbie' I don't know if it is down to me or the article, so a lot of time is wasted.
I write websites, I test everything. Should I need to give my clients written instruction I test the instruction, and then test them again. Examples have to work, that is a fundermental reason for an example.
It maybe that articles are out of dat, for example, many articles refer to netframework 1.1, we are on 4 now are we not, I personally use 3.5. It might be that that there is a conflict due to versions, I agree that then is not the authors fault, as such, but an author worth their salt would be diligent enought to retest an example on a leter framework and amend if necessary, and an author worth their salt, ought to test their example as if they have only basic knowledge of the subject because after all those reading the arrticle do so because they have no knoweledge. Can you see my point.
Your comment is a bit like saying you can vote out a bad goverment at the next elections. Fine, but the damage is done, lol.
Maybe a good author could include a tag to say this has been tested in xxxxxx conditions or something like that.
Thank you
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If you asked for help today and have had no response yet, it may be that you need to wait a little longer - none of us are paid to do this, most of us have regular jobs and may not have time or access to the source until we get home.
In addition, many of the articles on this site are now two or three versions of the framework and IDE behind the latest, and this can easily introduce problems when trying to get them working.
In my experience, nobody posts a non-working example (except quickly dashed off in the Q&A or forums) if they can help it. It may just be your bad luck that you have encountered so many.
[edit]Typing too fast - missed out the word "no" in the phrase "have had no response yet" - OriginalGriff[/edit]
Real men don't use instructions. They are only the manufacturers opinion on how to put the thing together.
Manfred R. Bihy: "Looks as if OP is learning resistant."
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Thank you. Of course you are probably right. My 'problem' gripe, is with the idea of posting untested code in general across all the forums and code project are no worse than other. I find blogs are often the worst culpret and I do advise them of a problem where I can, receiving answers along the lines of 'so busy' etc. My view is, if you can't test the code posted then don't bother. heres a link to one blog as an example.
http://weblogs.asp.net/sukumarraju/archive/2009/09/27/details-view-updating-using-custom-edit-and-update-buttons.aspx[^]
I dont want to point fingers ( I merely included his because it is not one of code projects contributors so I'm not raising 'issues with the people here', I'm sure Raju is extemely busy, but if you copy the code as posted into a new page, errors exist which have to be corrected. He declares a variable one way and then calls it in another format, he refers to controls which don't exist and no mention of whether the controls have to be created or not. It is a good example of what I mean.
Many code project examples are similar in problem to this example. On the otherhand some are really good so I accept the swings and roundabouts of it all, but I do feel that with a bit of 'care' then all issues, accept those of frameworks maybe, will disappear?
I do feel that sloppyness is not defenciable (including my bad typing). For experts these sort of issues are minor taking just a few moments to correct, for a newbie faced with a dozen errors in 'a technology' they are only just learning to use, it is mindboggling and extremely time consuming. From the answers I've received, if not outright, it seems that my point is recognised, but there seems to be little will to bother with it and I think that really is the thrust of my point.
The will should be there to deal with things like this. Surely, for example, a site designed with corrupt links etc would be put right to avoid disappointing users and turning them away? Well, a site providing inconsistant solutions should be prepared to look inwards and consider that maybe a problem of creditability is arising and look to find ways to deal with it?
Thanks for taking the time to offer me an answer.
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OK, I need to say something here.
I've written a few articles, not a lot. I don't bother unless I feel it's worth doing and when I do it I try my best to do a good jobs. All the code I post runs because It's all posted directly from running examples on my machine and those examples are uploaded un full for download.
Does that mean that when you download my code it'll run flawlessly? No.
Does it mean that you're guarenteed to understand my article? No.
There are a myriad reasons why a sample project that runs on my machine might not run on yours, prime among them is that fact that I'm posting sample code, not an off the shelf app. If you can get it running easily, that's great. If not then hopefully you'll still be able to grok the point of the article.
Sometimes I include Unit Tests with projects. If you don't have NUnit installed that will be a problem, so you need to drop the Test Project from the solution.
A while back I was working with Fitnesse which was developed by Uncle Bob Martin. He's a clever guy and so are the people who've worked with him on Fitnesse. I had a hell of a time getting it to work. I cursed it, I was convinced it was a buggy piece of crap because I couldn't get it working.
The main problem was that I was using it with .Net and most of the documentation was geared towards Java. That let to a few subtle issues for me. More importantly there were a few minor problems with the documentation that led me down a few blind alleys.
Guess what? I stuck at it and it turns out it's not a buggy piece of crap, it actually works very well. My biggest problems, the ones that took me longest to solve were down to assumptions on my part that were wrong.
Fitnesse is Free, the Articles on Code Project are free, the authors give their time and effort voluntarily. And for the most part if something about an article confuses you then ask, either the author or someone else will set you straight.
The only comment I've ever received on one of my articles was someone correcting something I said that was factually wrong. I was delighted and greatful. I don't know if people do ok with my code or not, but if anyone ever asked they'd find me willing and eager to help.
In all of this thread you don't seem to have mentioned the specific articles that gave you trouble. How about we start over and you let us know where you're having trouble and see if we can help you. Which articles are you having trouble with?
-Richard
Hit any user to continue.
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Thank you Richard.
I believe I can pass a link to the latest one, the problem is when I 'give' up - you dont know me so you wont know my personality, but basically I become very obsessed with a problem and usually refuse to give in which is why I waste so much time - I tend to delete everything associated because I hate to be reminded of my personal failures.
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/webforms/Editable_GridView.aspx[^]
I read through the article, downloaded, set up the database and the tables as instructed and I get an error when I run it
Line 1180: this.Adapter.SelectCommand = this.CommandCollection[0];
Line 1181: TestDatabase.ContactDataTable dataTable = new TestDatabase.ContactDataTable();
Line 1182: this.Adapter.Fill(dataTable);
Line 1183: return dataTable;
Line 1184:
I tried creating my oen dataset etc but just could not get it to work. It may well be a simple problem, but as a newbie I wouldnt have a clue. Thanks
I dso appreciate your comments about fitness etc, that is how I am, normally, but having wasted weeks now looking for solutions to problems and not really getting anywhere I am being to weary, and get vexed when the problem caused maybe might not have need to be caused?
You know what I mean. Many examples elsewhere are really badly produced and that goes across all skills, from adobe photoshop, jquery, dojo,, c#. vb.net and so on. sometimes I feel the nned to say, hey, tere are learners out there, remember us. I was repremanded on the dojo forum because I asked what to them seemed to them to be a simple question - weeks later I read that they suggested banning all newbies from their forums and they edit out newbie questions! That attitute is growing more and more - I believe that to be wrong and will stand up for us persons of limited knowledge.
Thank you for your patience and time.
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The code project is peer-reviewed, if you have a problem with a particular article you should write a comment in the forum at the bottom of its page. A decent author will either try to provide help or fix any mistakes. Don't forget that code written on one platform might not work on another so the code might work on the author's setup but not yours, such problems are unavoidable. You can then vote accordingly, this is how our review process works.
RayH1066 wrote: If certain steps have to be taken prior to using an example, say for instance,
setting up datasets
If the article is aimed at beginners, then this should be the case. If not then this will lower the clarity of the article by hiding the most salient points. To see this in action, read the Microsoft documentation for just about anything.
RayH1066 wrote: I wasted approximately last week alone 48 hours trying to get examples to work
Welcome to development  ! On the upside, IMO I've often learned more from this process over time than the original articles, but YMMV.
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Yo, thanks for that.
You are right, but in your answer is part of the solution which I think ought to be considered.
If the article requires 'knowledge of other things' then a simple statement at the top (maybe with links to articles if the author is aware of any) would do the trick. Simple really. A little bit of emphasing with the end user is all I am asking and I think that the 'owners' of the site ought to be making sure that ideal is followed. Surely it is good for the user, therefore in the longer term good for the site because it becomes known as a good site which considers all levels and so on.
The examples I refer to say.. download the source code, the examples I am thinking off include all the code necessary - in theory - to make an example work. The situations where it doesn't work is what I am referring to, and really there are no excuses for that, it is sloppy.
I do understand about different frameworks and that is part of my point. Details maybe to the framework used? The example to which I am referring simply said, set up 2 tables in a database and download this code, and this will show you how etc etc etc. No it didnt, and that is what I am referring to.
I dont expect the site to validate every input, but I do think that the site ought to be policing standards and maybe statements to authors as to the standard they expect maybe is not a bad direction to take. That really is what I am seeking and hope that in time such standards are implimented along with removal of articles older than say 3 years where the author isn't bothering to review it / update it?
Yo to welcome to the world of developement. Personally I think many of MS's examples are well ott and not based on what a user might actually want to see, that is why I scour the web looking for realtime examples.
As an aside, many forums I've visited don't even allow questions from newbies. I treasure an email I was sent by one forum which said We don't allow newbie questions on this site as we don't want to waste our time answering them, go read a book or ask a question on a forum somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks
modified on Thursday, May 5, 2011 7:48 AM
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RayH1066 wrote: . A little bit of emphasing with the end user is all I am asking and I think that the 'owners' of the site ought to be making sure that ideal is followed.
I doubt the owners could keep up! You are right in your general point that the authors should point out what prior knowledge is needed, it is also true that authors do not always follow this. I think the problem is intractable: we can never have enough reviewers who fully understand the subject to make sure this is always 100%, given the articles submitted. That said, there may be scope for providing both Authors & Reviewers guidance to that effect.
RayH1066 wrote: That really is what I am seeking and hope that in time such standards are implimented along with removal of articles older than say 3 years where the author isn't bothering to review it / update it?
Some of the older article are still perfectly valid, even if they aren't maintained, if we remove the chaff we'd be remove the wheat too, again this problem is intractable. The thing to do is to vote, at least that way the better articles will shine through.
The Code Project is largely self-policing, but free: both are a good thing, it allows a lot of freedom, but it is not foolproof. Peer-reviewing has worked in Universities and amongst professionals for a long time, the hope is that it will work here too. I've found the CodeProject to be more rewarding in the long-term than similar sites because, as you state, newbies can get started and the advice given is generally good, and there is more of a sense of community so you get to know who to trust. I hope you stick with it!
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Thank you.
That really is all I was asking for, a reply that saw there can be a problem for users, particularly newbies.
Some of the replies I've received are not so 'forward thinking' which I did / do, find to be worrying on a general level.
Good luck to you
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You're right of course.
I have found code project and I hope to stick with it. I accept about the voting level, maybe a new level can be added which signifies that people are not able to impliment the solution, that would raise questions sooner maybe?
Kind regards
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Keith Barrow wrote: The code project is peer-reviewed, if you have a problem with a particular article you should write a comment in the forum at the bottom of its page.
With the added request to please provide specific information about the problem and, if you have one, a solution that you have implemented to fix the problem. I have gotten comments on articles I've written that were nothing more than, "It won't compile" or "It doesn't work." My only possible response to that is, "It worked for me." Authors need to know why it doesn't work, or what line is causing the compile to crash and the error message that gets raised. Maybe I wrote the application on XP and a registry operation is failing on Win7; maybe I have a toolset or libary on my machine that you do not. Details will help a lot in fixing the problem.
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Gregory.Gadow wrote: With the added request to please provide specific information about the problem and, if you have one, a solution that you have implemented to fix the problem.
Good point it does work both ways! The other thing is I'd add is that the person who posted should really consider re-voting after a fix.
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Thanks for that.
Its good to read someone who acknowledges that errors - for whatever reason - can occur.
I accept that errors can occur for any number of reasons etc, I think that maybe a note to the 'viewer' as to the set up used to create the example / framework etc might help to elivate some of the frustrations which can occur.
As I've said elswhere here, for experts many problems are soplved between slurps of tea but for newbies (and lets face it, many viewers will be newbies) won't know where to start.
My comment is aimed at all forums not just code project and I've come across some appalling examples of ignorance etc. One I looked at had over 100 users posting problems and not a sing;e one was acknowledged and the article was 3 years old and never revised. It is that sort of thing which I am trying to point out.
Good luck
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