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Thank you. Of course you are probably right. My 'problem' gripe, is with the idea of posting untested code in general across all the forums and code project are no worse than other. I find blogs are often the worst culpret and I do advise them of a problem where I can, receiving answers along the lines of 'so busy' etc. My view is, if you can't test the code posted then don't bother. heres a link to one blog as an example.
http://weblogs.asp.net/sukumarraju/archive/2009/09/27/details-view-updating-using-custom-edit-and-update-buttons.aspx[^]
I dont want to point fingers ( I merely included his because it is not one of code projects contributors so I'm not raising 'issues with the people here', I'm sure Raju is extemely busy, but if you copy the code as posted into a new page, errors exist which have to be corrected. He declares a variable one way and then calls it in another format, he refers to controls which don't exist and no mention of whether the controls have to be created or not. It is a good example of what I mean.
Many code project examples are similar in problem to this example. On the otherhand some are really good so I accept the swings and roundabouts of it all, but I do feel that with a bit of 'care' then all issues, accept those of frameworks maybe, will disappear?
I do feel that sloppyness is not defenciable (including my bad typing). For experts these sort of issues are minor taking just a few moments to correct, for a newbie faced with a dozen errors in 'a technology' they are only just learning to use, it is mindboggling and extremely time consuming. From the answers I've received, if not outright, it seems that my point is recognised, but there seems to be little will to bother with it and I think that really is the thrust of my point.
The will should be there to deal with things like this. Surely, for example, a site designed with corrupt links etc would be put right to avoid disappointing users and turning them away? Well, a site providing inconsistant solutions should be prepared to look inwards and consider that maybe a problem of creditability is arising and look to find ways to deal with it?
Thanks for taking the time to offer me an answer.
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OK, I need to say something here.
I've written a few articles, not a lot. I don't bother unless I feel it's worth doing and when I do it I try my best to do a good jobs. All the code I post runs because It's all posted directly from running examples on my machine and those examples are uploaded un full for download.
Does that mean that when you download my code it'll run flawlessly? No.
Does it mean that you're guarenteed to understand my article? No.
There are a myriad reasons why a sample project that runs on my machine might not run on yours, prime among them is that fact that I'm posting sample code, not an off the shelf app. If you can get it running easily, that's great. If not then hopefully you'll still be able to grok the point of the article.
Sometimes I include Unit Tests with projects. If you don't have NUnit installed that will be a problem, so you need to drop the Test Project from the solution.
A while back I was working with Fitnesse which was developed by Uncle Bob Martin. He's a clever guy and so are the people who've worked with him on Fitnesse. I had a hell of a time getting it to work. I cursed it, I was convinced it was a buggy piece of crap because I couldn't get it working.
The main problem was that I was using it with .Net and most of the documentation was geared towards Java. That let to a few subtle issues for me. More importantly there were a few minor problems with the documentation that led me down a few blind alleys.
Guess what? I stuck at it and it turns out it's not a buggy piece of crap, it actually works very well. My biggest problems, the ones that took me longest to solve were down to assumptions on my part that were wrong.
Fitnesse is Free, the Articles on Code Project are free, the authors give their time and effort voluntarily. And for the most part if something about an article confuses you then ask, either the author or someone else will set you straight.
The only comment I've ever received on one of my articles was someone correcting something I said that was factually wrong. I was delighted and greatful. I don't know if people do ok with my code or not, but if anyone ever asked they'd find me willing and eager to help.
In all of this thread you don't seem to have mentioned the specific articles that gave you trouble. How about we start over and you let us know where you're having trouble and see if we can help you. Which articles are you having trouble with?
-Richard
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Thank you Richard.
I believe I can pass a link to the latest one, the problem is when I 'give' up - you dont know me so you wont know my personality, but basically I become very obsessed with a problem and usually refuse to give in which is why I waste so much time - I tend to delete everything associated because I hate to be reminded of my personal failures.
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/webforms/Editable_GridView.aspx[^]
I read through the article, downloaded, set up the database and the tables as instructed and I get an error when I run it
Line 1180: this.Adapter.SelectCommand = this.CommandCollection[0];
Line 1181: TestDatabase.ContactDataTable dataTable = new TestDatabase.ContactDataTable();
Line 1182: this.Adapter.Fill(dataTable);
Line 1183: return dataTable;
Line 1184:
I tried creating my oen dataset etc but just could not get it to work. It may well be a simple problem, but as a newbie I wouldnt have a clue. Thanks
I dso appreciate your comments about fitness etc, that is how I am, normally, but having wasted weeks now looking for solutions to problems and not really getting anywhere I am being to weary, and get vexed when the problem caused maybe might not have need to be caused?
You know what I mean. Many examples elsewhere are really badly produced and that goes across all skills, from adobe photoshop, jquery, dojo,, c#. vb.net and so on. sometimes I feel the nned to say, hey, tere are learners out there, remember us. I was repremanded on the dojo forum because I asked what to them seemed to them to be a simple question - weeks later I read that they suggested banning all newbies from their forums and they edit out newbie questions! That attitute is growing more and more - I believe that to be wrong and will stand up for us persons of limited knowledge.
Thank you for your patience and time.
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The code project is peer-reviewed, if you have a problem with a particular article you should write a comment in the forum at the bottom of its page. A decent author will either try to provide help or fix any mistakes. Don't forget that code written on one platform might not work on another so the code might work on the author's setup but not yours, such problems are unavoidable. You can then vote accordingly, this is how our review process works.
RayH1066 wrote: If certain steps have to be taken prior to using an example, say for instance,
setting up datasets
If the article is aimed at beginners, then this should be the case. If not then this will lower the clarity of the article by hiding the most salient points. To see this in action, read the Microsoft documentation for just about anything.
RayH1066 wrote: I wasted approximately last week alone 48 hours trying to get examples to work
Welcome to development  ! On the upside, IMO I've often learned more from this process over time than the original articles, but YMMV.
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Yo, thanks for that.
You are right, but in your answer is part of the solution which I think ought to be considered.
If the article requires 'knowledge of other things' then a simple statement at the top (maybe with links to articles if the author is aware of any) would do the trick. Simple really. A little bit of emphasing with the end user is all I am asking and I think that the 'owners' of the site ought to be making sure that ideal is followed. Surely it is good for the user, therefore in the longer term good for the site because it becomes known as a good site which considers all levels and so on.
The examples I refer to say.. download the source code, the examples I am thinking off include all the code necessary - in theory - to make an example work. The situations where it doesn't work is what I am referring to, and really there are no excuses for that, it is sloppy.
I do understand about different frameworks and that is part of my point. Details maybe to the framework used? The example to which I am referring simply said, set up 2 tables in a database and download this code, and this will show you how etc etc etc. No it didnt, and that is what I am referring to.
I dont expect the site to validate every input, but I do think that the site ought to be policing standards and maybe statements to authors as to the standard they expect maybe is not a bad direction to take. That really is what I am seeking and hope that in time such standards are implimented along with removal of articles older than say 3 years where the author isn't bothering to review it / update it?
Yo to welcome to the world of developement. Personally I think many of MS's examples are well ott and not based on what a user might actually want to see, that is why I scour the web looking for realtime examples.
As an aside, many forums I've visited don't even allow questions from newbies. I treasure an email I was sent by one forum which said We don't allow newbie questions on this site as we don't want to waste our time answering them, go read a book or ask a question on a forum somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks
modified on Thursday, May 5, 2011 7:48 AM
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RayH1066 wrote: . A little bit of emphasing with the end user is all I am asking and I think that the 'owners' of the site ought to be making sure that ideal is followed.
I doubt the owners could keep up! You are right in your general point that the authors should point out what prior knowledge is needed, it is also true that authors do not always follow this. I think the problem is intractable: we can never have enough reviewers who fully understand the subject to make sure this is always 100%, given the articles submitted. That said, there may be scope for providing both Authors & Reviewers guidance to that effect.
RayH1066 wrote: That really is what I am seeking and hope that in time such standards are implimented along with removal of articles older than say 3 years where the author isn't bothering to review it / update it?
Some of the older article are still perfectly valid, even if they aren't maintained, if we remove the chaff we'd be remove the wheat too, again this problem is intractable. The thing to do is to vote, at least that way the better articles will shine through.
The Code Project is largely self-policing, but free: both are a good thing, it allows a lot of freedom, but it is not foolproof. Peer-reviewing has worked in Universities and amongst professionals for a long time, the hope is that it will work here too. I've found the CodeProject to be more rewarding in the long-term than similar sites because, as you state, newbies can get started and the advice given is generally good, and there is more of a sense of community so you get to know who to trust. I hope you stick with it!
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Thank you.
That really is all I was asking for, a reply that saw there can be a problem for users, particularly newbies.
Some of the replies I've received are not so 'forward thinking' which I did / do, find to be worrying on a general level.
Good luck to you
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You're right of course.
I have found code project and I hope to stick with it. I accept about the voting level, maybe a new level can be added which signifies that people are not able to impliment the solution, that would raise questions sooner maybe?
Kind regards
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Keith Barrow wrote: The code project is peer-reviewed, if you have a problem with a particular article you should write a comment in the forum at the bottom of its page.
With the added request to please provide specific information about the problem and, if you have one, a solution that you have implemented to fix the problem. I have gotten comments on articles I've written that were nothing more than, "It won't compile" or "It doesn't work." My only possible response to that is, "It worked for me." Authors need to know why it doesn't work, or what line is causing the compile to crash and the error message that gets raised. Maybe I wrote the application on XP and a registry operation is failing on Win7; maybe I have a toolset or libary on my machine that you do not. Details will help a lot in fixing the problem.
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Gregory.Gadow wrote: With the added request to please provide specific information about the problem and, if you have one, a solution that you have implemented to fix the problem.
Good point it does work both ways! The other thing is I'd add is that the person who posted should really consider re-voting after a fix.
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Thanks for that.
Its good to read someone who acknowledges that errors - for whatever reason - can occur.
I accept that errors can occur for any number of reasons etc, I think that maybe a note to the 'viewer' as to the set up used to create the example / framework etc might help to elivate some of the frustrations which can occur.
As I've said elswhere here, for experts many problems are soplved between slurps of tea but for newbies (and lets face it, many viewers will be newbies) won't know where to start.
My comment is aimed at all forums not just code project and I've come across some appalling examples of ignorance etc. One I looked at had over 100 users posting problems and not a sing;e one was acknowledged and the article was 3 years old and never revised. It is that sort of thing which I am trying to point out.
Good luck
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One of the tasks of the editors is to ensure that the code in question actually compiles and works. If an editor feels that there's a problem, then they can either fix the code themselves (highly unlikely), or they notify the author that there's a problem. Unfortunately there are only a few editors, and hundreds of articles/blogs/tips added each week. Keeping up is like trying to shovel sand with a teaspoon.
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Hi. I do feel for the editors, truly and I also appreciate that most contributors are not paid etc. I do understand all that, but if most of the lifeboat rescues failed and the reasons given 'is well we are only volunteers and we are busy at work and don't have the resources etc', an outcry would ensue.
A site purporting to offer solutions - and I do praise these ideals more than is showing in my comments - then it is upto that site to make sure they do that, isn't it? If google didn't return searches similar to those we request then we would question the creditability of the engine would we not?
What I've heard today are loads of reasons why something can't be done but not one single reason why they should be done and that is a condition of the net in general. The reason for these attitudes is because the services offered are inhumanly electronic. If such services were offered on a face to face level then the responses would be entirely different, don't you think?
We forget we are dealing with people?
thanks
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RayH1066 wrote: A site purporting to offer solutions - and I do praise these ideals more than is
showing in my comments - then it is upto that site to make sure they do that,
isn't it? If google didn't return searches similar to those we request then we
would question the creditability of the engine would we not?
I think you're missing the point.
Code project doesn't purport to offer solutions.
Code project purports to put you in contact with fellow developers, and facilitate ongoing discussions via articles, blogs, forums etc.
What you use that for us up to you.
What you are suggesting is akin to complaining to a barman because the girl you're talking to won't go home with you.
The bar just provides a bar stool and beer, what you do with it is up to you.
If there's an article with bugs in the code then post a question and give the author a chance to fix it or explain it. If you're still not happy down vote the article.
-Richard
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You are so so wrong. If you are part of this site then I think this illustrates what is wrong with the attitudes controlling it. Wow!
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I really don't think anyone who has been a member of any community for less than a month is in any position to categorically say that there is something wrong with that community.
I think think a good many people including myself have now offered to help you out with any specific issues you have with articles, and you've yet to ask a specific question.
Enjoy your time on CodeProject, but I suspect you'll find people grow increasingly unwilling to help you if you spend your time complaining about them.
Take me for example....I opened with an offer to help you with any article you had trouble with.
I had that offer thrown in my face, and now, frankly I couldn't care less.
Funny how the world works like that isn't it?
-Richard
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Actually, sir, I have been a member for a large number of years.
I recently changed my email address and I created a new account because the changes were for some reason not actioned. I still receive emails to my old accounts(s). Yes I have a number because I set up an accounts for each company I was working with so that I would receive mail etc to their address rather than my personal one.
I am entitled as a person to make an observation whether I have been here 5 minutes or 100 years.
People who have helped me in the past have ALWAYS been thanked without question, those are my manners.
I have raised a simple question about some of the items posted which appear not to function.
If I for instance posted a comment about invalid links, would you suggested that I am not entitled to mention those too or are you ok with that. Also, please remind as to what help you have given me becasee I cant recall any? Maybe you would be kind enough to let me know that.
I have always accepted help and thanked the person for their time, and I mean that. So, maybe you are either mixing me up with someone else or you have somehow completely misunderstood something. Maybe if you have misunderstood it is because I have not explained myself properly and isnt that awful! Opps, if that is the case then you can see why I am frustrated. Bad response / information etc is really off putting isn't it.
Accusing me of not accepting and being grateful for help given is absolutely the biggest dammed misconception of the truth that I have encountered for a long while. Is you surname Nikson?
Regards
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While I do feel for you, you use a slightly flawed analogy. If Google was run by volunteers and it didn't deliver, there wouldn't be the outcry. Similarly, Google is using software to manage its quality. Here on Code Project, we are relying on something infinitely more unreliable, humans. While I would love every article to be up to the standard of Sacha Barbers articles, sadly many aren't. More importantly, you are asking CP to ask authors to check things that they will just ignore. I am not optimistic about your chances of winning this argument I am afraid.
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Hi
Maybe Google was not a good example insomuch as it is a commercial enterprise, but you never mentioned the lifeboat scenario, so I guess my point was made.
My point was one of principle, Ig google didn't perform questions would be asked, that is all I was faying, and the principle is sound whether they are a commercial concern or manned by volunteers.
My thoughts are, that while the contributors to this site do so at their own time etc, and I am thankfully for that, the site its self I suspect has a revenue stream and if I am right then it is a commercial enterprise the same as any other.
Thanks
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Your lifeboat analogy is also bogus.
Firstly Lifeboat operators work in life and death situations where both their lives and the lives of the people they are rescuing hand in the balance.
They are exremely well trained for that specific roll and are hopefully provided with the best possible equipment (at great cost).
Code Project is not here to rescue you from drowning in your Code. It's a forum and article bank. It's a community. You get out of it what you put into it.
I can tell you right now, that you won't get much out of Code Project because all you seem willing to put into it are complaints.
How about you write an article or two and show us how it should be done. Instead of complaining that the quality around here sucks and demanding we all raise our game, how about you raise your game and show us how high the bar should be?
<blockquote class="FQ"><div class="FQA">RayH1066 wrote:</div>My point was one of principle, Ig google didn't perform questions would be
asked, that is all I was faying, and the principle is sound whether they are a
commercial concern or manned by volunteers. <BR> <BR></blockquote>
No the principle is not Sound. If a voluntary service wasn't delivering then it wouldn't be used. If CodeProject wasn't providing a valuable service to developers then there wouldn't be so many developers actively participating in CodeProject. You've been here less than a month and you're essentially saying CodeProject isn't delivering, isn't providing a useful service.
What you are essentially saying that the thousands of developers who actively use CodeProject are too dumb to realise that they are using an inferior service?
-Richard
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Hahahahahahahah. God I'd love to meet you hahahahaha.
Someone raises an issue that is personal to them and to which you personally dont agree - or in this instance I dont think can see - I wonder how you would deal with it face to face?
I have a point which you cant get your head around. Accept it. My experience of many forums have not been good for the reasions I've given. Yours on the other hand might be supurb, great for you, but please allow someone with a view different to yoursd to air it. Not to allow them to so do is frightenly closed minded.
The points I am trying to make to you regarding voluntary organisations id that standards are expected by the users, and using the idea that it is voluntarilly manned so 'hard luck' is in my opinion very commercially niave maybe?
Thank you and good luck
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You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am disagreeing with you here. The regulars were so fed up with poor quality articles that we pestered the site owners for the ability to moderate new articles by new authors. The theory here being that we would start to weed out the rubbish before it was posted.
This strategy works to a certain extent, but there is a lot of historic dross as a backlog, and there is till the human factor to overcome. Certain authors are posting articles merely as a way to get recognition with employers and they aim for quantity rather than quality, saying to their employers "I wrote 30 articles on Code Project".
Let me ask you. How would you overcome the human factor? If you can come up with something we haven't thought of then I know that Chris and his team would take to it, provided it was practical. Despite what you think, Chris is very dedicated to keeping the standards of the site high. He is justifiably proud of Code Project.
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Many articles aren't really written with beginners in mind. For instance, most of mine are written under the assumption that the reader isn't a raw noob just getting started in programming, and indeed, I even sometimes state the assumption that said reader is familiar with the underlying concepts being discussed.
Most of my articles are derived from actual work experience, and for the most part, don't provide "Hello world" level examples.
As for stuff you've downloaded that "doesn't work out of the box", well, that's life as a programmer. When I download code, I ALWAYS massage it to fit my requirements, and I pretty much never use anything the way it's presented unless it's an actual library.
Authors not respoding is a common occurrence, and not just here. I try to respond to all of mine that are still relevant (I havent worked in C++ for about four years, so I can't really comment on anything I wrote before July 2007 - I simply don't have the storage capacity to remember why I did stuff or how it worked.
Like everything in life, using code off the net is a crapshoot. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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Hi.. Thanks. I accept all of your points, I to will utilise etc and I also accept that articles are not all written withthe 'nob' in mind. I thank you for pointing that out in your articles and no doubt I've noticed that and moved on to something which I can understand.
When I find an example which suggested that by setting up 2 simple database tables and downloading the code file the example will enable a certain action to be performed I naively expect it to do that.
And.. it is this point that is being ignored by most respondees to my initial comment.
I am sure that many contributors are diligent in what they produce and again I thank people for that, it is those who produce examples which just do not fuction and I can think of a number which need variables declaring correctly, or adding, or where ids are referred to which dont exist and that sort of error. Those sort of errors show me that the code was not tested because had it been then those sort of sil;y mistakes would be noticed.
Of course, the degree of mistakes are not always as simple as my illustration above so for a newbie it becomes sometimes insurmountable. It has little to do with the level of knowledge but more more to do with ommissions by the author, so all I am simply asking is, please can authors remember that not all readers will be experts therefore they do not have the knowledge to correct error that may be occurring.
Some errors are of course framework errors etc, but many are just bad typing (like mine) and ommissions which are obvious to experts but not new learners.
Thank you
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Speaking as someone who has written several articles, I would urge you PLEASE to leave a comment on the article if the provided source code contains non-trivial errors of any kind. It would also be immensely helpful if you could mention the version of VS, .Net, IIS and other relevant infrastructure you are using, the specific module and line number where the error is, and what the compilation or other error message is. At the very least, the author can reply with a work-around if the problem is minor ("Before compiling the example, change line 27 in HelloWorld.cpp to say if (i == x) ") or republish the article with a new download if it is not.
Errors happen, no matter how careful the author is. Helping to fix those errors will accomplish far more than just pissing and moaning about them.
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