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There's not much I can add to this debate that hasn't already been covered by the discussion here.
I'm a cat lover myself and thinking about eating a cat makes my skin crawl. However, I have many vegetarian friends who can't stand the thought of eating any animal. You can't judge other cultures and ways of living based on your values.
All I can say is: if you think the message should be removed then click the "vote to remove" link in the message.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote: All I can say is: if you think the message should be removed then click the "vote to remove" link in the message.
Oh, yeah - I did. But I've never on any occasion experienced that that has ANY effect whatsoever, and other users have pointed out the same...
I'm very disappointed in you Chris. You've got it all wrong: A website is all about making statements - it's not a friggin democracy where you're the president.
1st of all: How about the kid sister rule? I sure as hell wouldn't want my kid sister or child or mother to find any links like the one in question on a page I thought was about programming. I don't care what is to be found "out there" on the internet, but if you link to it, you condone it.
And since I don't want to be a part of anything that has such a wrong view on whats acceptable and not, this will be the last post I'm making in any of your forums. Too bad, because I liked it here. But I'm sure that there are other programming forums that can benifit from my time...
This is not all: History has shown that you happily condone racist attacks against several folk groups, and I have noticed that people have left the site in anger because of that. It appears that that is okay with you too.
Maybe if you actualy had some balls and set up some rules for what people can write and what they can't, this would TRULY be a democratic site. But as it is now, it blatant hypocracy...
BYE
1f y0u c4n r34d 7h15 y0u r3411y n33d 70 g37 14!d
Gotta run; I've got people to do and things to see...
Don't tell my folks I'm a computer programmer - They think I'm a piano player in a cat house...
Da mihi sis crustum Etruscum cum omnibus in eo!
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Bye now, be sure to write.
But not about your zealotry and intolerance.
------------------------------------
I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC League Table Link
CCC Link[ ^]
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Johnny J. wrote: Oh, yeah - I did. But I've never on any occasion experienced that that has ANY effect whatsoever, and other users have pointed out the same...
Actually, it does, but enough people need to vote as abuse (I have on the basis of the KSS rule). Most people vote 1 thinking this is enough, but it has too little effect.
Johnny J. wrote: I'm very disappointed in you Chris. You've got it all wrong: A website is all about making statements - it's not a friggin democracy where you're the president.
Actually, by making it a democracy, I'd say he is making a statement, that democratic systems work, especially where the constituency is intellgent. Sometimes, this does throw out things that people disagree with.
Johnny J. wrote: 1st of all: How about the kid sister rule? I sure as hell wouldn't want my kid sister or child or mother to find any links like the one in question on a page I thought was about programming. I don't care what is to be found "out there" on the internet, but if you link to it, you condone it.
You are dead right about the KSS rule, but the lounge specifically isn't about programming. I don't agree that he is condoning the link, as the forum is public.
Johnny J. wrote: And since I don't want to be a part of anything that has such a wrong view on whats acceptable and not, this will be the last post I'm making in any of your forums. Too bad, because I liked it here. But I'm sure that there are other programming forums that can benifit from my time...
I've been hacked off here a few times, but only after I got used to the place. It's really worth persuing as many of the regulars are very helpful and knowledgable, and unlike some other sites there is more wheat than chaff.
Johnny J. wrote: Maybe if you actualy had some balls and set up some rules for what people can write and what they can't, this would TRULY be a democratic site. But as it is now, it blatant hypocracy...
No, it takes balls to do what he does, which is to accomodate different viewpoints to his own. This is in the best tradition of academic freedom as I see it. I've experience places where intellectual freedom is not exactly free, beleive me the consequences of the restrictions are terrible.
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Well Said.
------------------------------------
I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC League Table Link
CCC Link[ ^]
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Johnny - I'm sorry that you think that it's necessary to take such a position. The question I have for you though, is what you think should be done beyond the Vote to remove message link? You actually took the cowards way here by running to Chris to get him to remove the link rather than posting a reasoned argument on the thread explaining why others should vote to remove it. As others have pointed out to you, you are trying to impose your cultural viewpoint on others, and then you have the outright gall to play the racism card here; quite frankly, your hypocrisy is quite outstanding.
Now, quite frankly, you are acting like a spoiled brat. Chris has explained what your choice was, and shows admirable restraint in not deleting the link because he is not imposing his personal viewpoint on what should be talked about. Imagine, if Chris didn't like people talking about Apple products and started deleting all the threads that were about new phones; would you think that it was fair that Chris used his powers in this way. Now, you go too far when you say that Chris condones racism - I don't know the guy personally but I've been a regular long enough to have got to know what type of guy he really is, and I know that he is appalled when people stray into these areas, but again, he advises people what to do. Rather than treating this as a dictatorship, Chris encourages people to use their votes wisely and that's admirable. Now, I've had a couple of run ins with Chris over things that have been posted, but I've never felt the need to complain about his approach - I've just agreed to disagree with him. I certainly haven't behaved like a badly behaved 5 year old and thrown my toys out of the pram.
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You and the rest are completely missing the point. It IS - as you mention - to a certain part about cultural differences. But it's not that I want to "impose" my cultural viewpoints on others. It's about respect for your fellow man.
In my culture, eating cats is abominable - in your's it's ok. Fine.
Well, if the link had been about Canadians being boiled and flayed alive, then I would have found it ok. - or Australians - or Indians - or ENGLISHMEN (yum, yum)! That's ok with me because everybody knows that they're the scum of the Earth, so killing them would be an act of good.
Do you get my ironic point? If something is NOT ok from ONE cultural viewpoint, then it SHOULDN'T be ok to post it either - even though it IS ok from your point of view. Because it will upset and repulse certain users.
Hey, sleeping with your 12 year old sister is ok in Arkansas, let's post something about that here as well...
By saying that anything is ok to post because anything is ok with one culture or the other, then you WILL violate some peoples beliefs. That's not democracy - that's anarchy.
As for the Apple reference, I can only say that in my opinion it would be good if Chris WOULD censor that, because that crap is absolutely worthless.
As for the racism: As I've mentioned in another post, I've SEEN people being verbally abused based on their race - without Chris or anybody else from the CP interfering - I would say that's condoning in my opinion.
As for my response. As I said, I really like the CP, so I don't WANT to leave. But on the other hand: I don't want to browse the site either and risk finding links like this. It doesn't matter if it's in the lounge or in the back room or wherever it is. Stuff like that has no place on a site that's basically for programmers.
My opinion is as said that this is not a democratic replublic where Chris is the president. It's a website HE owns, and everything that's published on that - no matter if it's by himself or others - and not moderated - is HIS responsibility. And I don't think that he's living up to that responsibility by letting people run loose and do whatever they want.
1f y0u c4n r34d 7h15 y0u r3411y n33d 70 g37 14!d
Gotta run; I've got people to do and things to see...
Don't tell my folks I'm a computer programmer - They think I'm a piano player in a cat house...
Da mihi sis crustum Etruscum cum omnibus in eo!
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In some cultures, belief in God is mandatory, or else they kill you.
But I am an Atheist who knows that anyone who believes in a Sky-Pixie needs their head examined.
What do you do then?
Ban all references to religion (My prefered choice) or ban people who aren't religious?
Or, better still, allow everyone to have the right to express themselves freely, but whom must accept that others will not agree with them, and when their viewpoint is attacked via argument, respond in the same manner rather than "I cannot counter your logical thought and intelligent ratiocination, so I will blow myself up on a bus full of innocent people"?
------------------------------------
I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC League Table Link
CCC Link[ ^]
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I saw a great sticker the other day. "Atheism. A non-prophet organisation." Well, it made me laugh.
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Johnny J. wrote: I've SEEN people being verbally abused based on their race - without Chris or anybody else from the CP interfering - I would say that's condoning in my opinion
And I would say "I can't be everywhere", which is why I put in place measures to allow members to remove messages that are inappropriate. I'm not going to spend all my time moderating every post. No website operator can or should do this. I spend my time ensuring the website allows the community to moderate itself, which is the only way it can work. If you take a look at the message you will see that it has now been blocked by the community.
I will (and should, and do) quietly step in when things are totally off base but there are things I miss, and things I have to go back and clean up when I'm made aware. However, trying to compare eating an animal to eating a human is a falicious argument. Should I delete every post by those in cultures that eat dog? Should I delete every post regarding bacon because of potential offense to those of other religions? It's the same thing. However, post a link to a serious, illustrated guide to canabilism and that link, and your account, are history.
This all boils down to the question of "what is offensive". What is offensive to one is not offensive to another and it's completely impossible to censor every post that is potentially offensive to someone. Someone, somewhere, is not going to like what you say or the clothes you are wearing when you say it. Freedom of speech, Thought Police, oppression - these terms all get thrown at you and people leave because they are scared to say "boo" without their account being deleted.
Yes, I too find the practice of eating animals we keep and love as pets offensive but I made the call to not step in because the post was on a topic that straddled serious cultural differences and, while it was posted as a joke, it served as a catalyst for a debate that highlighted the very differences between our world of members that make CodeProject, and the internet as a whole, a place where stereotypes can be broken down through dialogue and understanding.
And speaking of cultural differences and tolerance: I've also been called many names in my time, but racist is a new one, and is one I reject.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote: I've also been called many names in my time, but racist is a new one, and is one I reject.
I have never seen you make any comment that could be considered racist.
But the Ashes are starting and I shall expect a few Anti-English sentiments to come hurtling across the ether!
(Not necessarily from you, but from other Ocker Members).
Would they be banned and classed as racist? I do hope not, for I am looking forward to responding in kind! 
------------------------------------
I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC League Table Link
CCC Link[ ^]
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Chris Maunder wrote:
And speaking of cultural differences and tolerance: I've also been called many names in my time, but racist is a new one, and is one I reject.
I didn't call you peronally a racist, but by not acting/sticking your head in the sand/"allowing the community to moderate itself" - you're condoning racism...
Chris Maunder wrote: the website allows the community to moderate itself
You can't do that when some individuals put their own right of speech above the respect for other people...
Chris Maunder wrote: trying to compare eating an animal to eating a human is a falicious argument.
Why? That too is acceptable in certain cultures - no difference there...
You don't need to worry, I'm not planning to post a picture guide on that, but your argument that that is two different things don't hold up...
1f y0u c4n r34d 7h15 y0u r3411y n33d 70 g37 14!d
Gotta run; I've got people to do and things to see...
Don't tell my folks I'm a computer programmer - They think I'm a piano player in a cat house...
Da mihi sis crustum Etruscum cum omnibus in eo!
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Johnny,
I think this thread has been done to death.
Your views have been made, opinions expressed, and arguements entered into.
Draw a line and move on.
There is so much more to talk about than a now old subject.
------------------------------------
I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC League Table Link
CCC Link[ ^]
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Chris Maunder wrote: falicious
Is that a new word derived from "feline" and "delicious", or did you mean "fallacious"?
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That will teach me to stop using IE and start using a browser with an inbuilt "guess who can't spell!" feature.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Not so much a bug as an opinion.
When a new post is made using the 'news' option, it gets a Bold 'NEWS' header on the post.
Given that the other options have a pertinant icon rather than a word, could not some form of consistancy be maintained.
ie an Icon for news?
I would suggest a small newspaper icon, or a lightbulb (for it is illuminating).
I think the word 'News' looks inconsistant and ugly.
------------------------------------
I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC League Table Link
CCC Link[ ^]
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I'm guessing you're using Firefox.
"News" items do have an icon, but it seems that the image, for some reason, wasn't downloaded when you viewed the page. FireFox shows the ALT text if it can't find the image. The alt text, in this case, is News.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Amazing what a Ctrl F5 can do.
------------------------------------
I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC League Table Link
CCC Link[ ^]
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Seriously, Lambda Simplified[^] is not a good article and yet it's in the Best C# article survey. What's wrong? Weren't there enough decent articles in place that this one could sneak in?
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There's an ethnic voting bloc at work here I suspect.
“The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.” ~ Carl Sagan
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Sadly I suspect you're right. Yet, looking at the voting on the article, the guy has attracted more my votes of 1 than sh*t attracts flies.
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It must have had just enough votes to make a spot.
Thanks,
Sean Ewington
The Code Project
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I think there needs to be some manual filtering then before allowing articles into the "Best article" categories. There seems to have been a fair amount of shill voting on that article to counter the fact that so many people voted it 1. With such a blizzard of downvotes, I'd expect it to have fallen off the radar a lot sooner.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote: There seems to have been a fair amount of shill voting on that article to counter the fact that so many people voted it 1
Not from what I can see when I view the logs.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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I am getting not trusted security certificate warnings trying to login to CP. Windows XP SP2 w/IE 7.
Thanks.
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