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Unfortunately, that is the philosophy of the big boss. Developers should test their code, but they shouldn't be responsible for Quality Assurance. You can't effectively do both jobs at once. If you try, some part of it will suffer: the coding or the testing.
Jon Sagara
Damnit Jim!
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Let's see now, I missed it in analysis, I missed it in design, I missed it in coding, I missed it in debugging, I missed it in unit testing, but wait! I'll catch it when I put on my QA wannabe cap, right?!
Hey, makes about as much sense as anything else in this business...
Chistopher Duncan
Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Jon Sagara wrote:
You can't effectively do both jobs at once.
I agree, it's like proof-reading a document that you wrote.
Many errors are natural to the developer.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining.
Said by Roger Wright about me.
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There must be outside people that test your programs, because they come with a fresh mind. Btw they'll not only show the bugs, they'll also actively suggest better UI and stuff.
MS quote (http://www.microsoft.com/ddk) : As of September 30, 2002, the Microsoft® Windows® 2000 DDK, the Microsoft Windows 98 DDK, and the Microsoft Windows NT® 4.0 DDK will no longer be available for purchase or download on this site.
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I worked for Robot Research a few years ago, eventually bought by Sensormatic (and now something else). They were the only company I ever worked for that had a functional QA department, with people who were actually intelligent. I'm really glad I had this positive experience, because everywhere eles I've been, the QA has been a joke.
I learned how to code so that every user action is logged, so I don't have to rely on the QA department saying "I did X" when in reality, they did "Y". I've had people test functionality they were specifically told NOT TO TEST because it was still under development. I've given QA a detailed acceptance test procedure which was totally ignored. The ATP is useful because, of course, there's no documentation when QA wants to start testing, so they don't have the slightest idea what to do with the product, hence they need some basic walkthrough document.
And then, there's getting management to pay for a real QA department. That's another battle. Oh, and lets not forget buying several different machines with different OS's to test the product.
I guess this is why Florida spent >$30 MILLION and still can't get their election right. Jeez. I worked for an election company, and it just isn't that difficult (I think I could have done a lot better with just $1M!!!). Of course, election people are some of the stupidest people in the whole world.
Oh boy, did this survey get me going.
Marc
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QA = joke:
Q: Who is the QA department for our company?
A: Our customers, of course.
Gary R. Wheeler
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The bad thing is, it's not even a joke here at my company. Our initial customers on a new product routinely find more bugs in the first couple of months of operation than our testing group (such as they are) find during the entire time they're banging away on it.
"Think of it as evolution in action." - 'Oath of Fealty' by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
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I hear ya. I remember one QA tester who favorite method was to bang on the keys like a monkey. "See, it's broken. You need to fix it." It started getting worse after he took a few VB classes and started explaining to the C++ coders who to fix the code.
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well, since we are too small a group to have a full size QC department, we are using the following arangement: each programmer in the team is responsible for one or more projects, as a QC guy. plus the client (whcih are ususally inhouse clients) are doing their own UAT (users a cceptance tests).
but I am really am interested in something else: how much of you are CMM Level 2? Level 3? even heard of CMM?
Noam
Noam Ben Haim
Web Developer
Intel
noam.ben.chaim@intel.com
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Hi all,
Noam Ben Haim wrote:
but I am really am interested in something else: how much of you are CMM Level 2? Level 3? even heard of CMM?
Well, we are somewhere between CMM Level 1 and CMM Level 2, heading for more ...
Erik.
The opinion expressed here is solely mine.
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Yes, it is true. You know, whenever QA finds bugs, the first reaction from developers is screaming: "this is not a bug". But when this big man comes to your cubicle and says: "This is a bug!!!", somehow the answer usually is: "OK, I'll fix it". 
![Beer | [beer]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/beer.gif)
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
But when this big man comes to your cubicle and says: "This is a bug!!!", somehow the answer usually is: "OK, I'll fix it".
Sounds like your shop is severely screwed - why does some QA guy bother developers in their cubicles? 
In here I will not lift a finger unless our project manager will tell me to do something. Users or testers are not allowed anywhere near the developers unless they can help in fixing something and assigned so...
I C++, therefore I am...
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George wrote:
Sounds like your shop is severely screwed - why does some QA guy bother developers in their cubicles?
Usually he doesn't. He justs assigns a bug to me in our bug-tracking system. But sometimes, I think this is not a bug, so I mark it as "not a bug", and then the QA guy needs to approve my decision.
Generally, no product can be delivered until it is bug-free, and the QA decides when a product is "bug-free enough" .
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
Generally, no product can be delivered until it is bug-free
Sorry, I have to resist the urge to laugh anytime somebody says that.. 
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
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I kid you not ! This is about the only criteria many here use.
Oh no, you can't fool me. There ain't no Sanity Clause!
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Andrew Torrance wrote:
Well it compiles !
The first step to a successful program!
Roger Allen
Sonork 100.10016
I think I need a new quote, I am on the prowl, so look out for a soft cute furry looking animal, which is really a Hippo in disguise. Its probably me.
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Adrew Torrance wrote:
Well it compiles !
Roger Allen wrote:
The first step to a successful program!
I think that is the First And Only Step of M$....;P;P;P
Carlos Antollini.
Sonork ID 100.10529 cantollini
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 Well Compilation comes afterwards, before it comes the big part
"getting to the compilation stage "
Sansky 
John 3:16
For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son ( Jesus Christ ) ,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Andrew Torrance wrote:
This is about the only criteria many here use.
I don't even get away with that one in college.. Have to be thoroughly tested !!!
Regards,
Brian Dela
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Anyone's place of work bother with the 9000 type compliance anymore ?
Regardz
Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining.
Said by Roger Wright about me.
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We used to have it but thankfully dropped it after about a year. I always thought it was just a lot of useless paperwork.
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Yeah, I feel that its a paper war as well.
The basic principles are sound, but it seems to have been converted into a bureaucrats dream.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining.
Said by Roger Wright about me.
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If Dilbert's comments are anything to go by ( and by Dilbert, I of course mean Scott Adams ) then I hope not.
Christian
Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002
During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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