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So the VS.NET don't say "You don't have enough with mhz"? 
But you need a WinNT system! I tried ínstalled it on a WinME computer...
It didn't allowed me to do that!
But WinME sucks anyway!
Rickard Andersson@Suza Computing
C# and C++ programmer from SWEDEN!
UIN: 50302279
E-Mail: nikado@pc.nu
Speciality: I love C#, ASP.NET and C++!
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what version of windows are you running
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Make sure you have lot of time to waste.
May the Source be with you
Sonork ID 100.9997 sijinjoseph
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If you can afford VS.NET, I would urge you to at least get the memory up to 384 - 512MB, more if possible
MYrc : A .NET IRC client with C# Plugin Capabilities. See
http://sourceforge.net/projects/myrc for more info. 
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I have 128MB RAM, and VS.NET, and my hard drive is swapping all the time.
My VS.NET experience is slowed. Often windows open in 5 seconds.
Plan to upgrade to 256MB.
MS quote (http://www.microsoft.com/ddk) : As of September 30, 2002, the Microsoft® Windows® 2000 DDK, the Microsoft Windows 98 DDK, and the Microsoft Windows NT® 4.0 DDK will no longer be available for purchase or download on this site. Support for development will ship at the same time as the Windows XP Service Pack 1 (SP1) release.
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Though I don't understand a sh*t who calls who in what you tell, you may look further with either of these :
- add a marshal attribute before the safearray param :
[Out, MarshalAs( UnmanagedType.SafeArray,
SafeArraySubType = VarEnum.VT_RECORD )] out Object[] Items
See here[^]
- you may also implement a custom marshaler (ICustomMarshaler)
MS quote (http://www.microsoft.com/ddk) : As of September 30, 2002, the Microsoft® Windows® 2000 DDK, the Microsoft Windows 98 DDK, and the Microsoft Windows NT® 4.0 DDK will no longer be available for purchase or download on this site. Support for development will ship at the same time as the Windows XP Service Pack 1 (SP1) release.
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Is there an equivalent to MFC grid control for C#? has anyone made it?
I needed a list control that would allow word wrap. Can this be done?
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I believe the the DataGrid is what your are looking for.
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Okay, I'm really confused. I have a foreach loop that looks roughly like this:
foreach(MyNamespace.MyDataSetType.MyRow row in MyDataSet.MyTableName)
Somehow the program is trying to retrieve one record past the end of the DataTable. That shouldn't happen, ever... right???
Has anyone else ever seen anything like this happen?
Paul
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STL iterators do this - a container has a begin and an end position and then can be stepped through by incrementing the iterator while it is < end. In other words, end is not a valid position. I'd say your dataset is doing the same.
Christian
Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002
Cats, and most other animals apart from mad cows can write fully functional vb code. - Simon Walton - 6-Aug-2002
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Christian Graus wrote:
STL iterators do this
Thanks Christian, it wasn't anything like that in the end, it was me being stupid.
While the loop appeared to continue, it was just escaping from the exception which was caused by the function WITHIN the loop. If it hadn't happened on the last record every time, I'd have noticed that sooner.
DOH! 
Paul
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try
foreach(MyNamespace.MyDataSetType.MyRow row in MyDataSet.MyTableName.Rows)
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Hi all,
Im REALLY new to all this and want to start programming. I want to start on either C++ or C#. My friends have told me to go for C# as it will be used more often in afew years and its easier to get started on and has good support.
The main question I have is C# good for gaming or any other program. As we all know chances of getting into the gaming field is low at the start. So what kind of job could I get in the begining using C# as my primary? Thats the biggest issue I have. I dont know what kind of job C# can offer me and if it is possible to code an game engine in it =) I mainly want to work on advanced AI code for games.
If C# is good then is it okay I get C# Standard? I really cant afford the 799 buck studio and it seems alittle stupid to get vb,c++,j when I want to start with C#. Also I noticed there is a book called C#, How to program is it any good?
Thanks in advance!
(im still new so if AI coding and such work on game engines with DX all work on any code dont laugh)
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Vipermmx wrote:
My friends have told me to go for C# as it will be used more often in afew years
Bollocks.
Vipermmx wrote:
and its easier to get started on
That much is true.
Vipermmx wrote:
has good support.
I'd say C++ still has more 'support' in terms of online info, etc. But C# is certainly supported.
Vipermmx wrote:
The main question I have is C# good for gaming or any other program.
No. It's too slow. I'm told that the next DX will be supported in C#, which may change that somewhat, but C++ will always be faster, even if it becomes possible to write games in C#.
Vipermmx wrote:
So what kind of job could I get in the begining using C# as my primary?
Not a damn thing and I doubt that will change anytime soon.
Vipermmx wrote:
I dont know what kind of job C# can offer me and if it is possible to code an game engine in it =) I mainly want to work on advanced AI code for games.
You want to learn C++. C# will offer you a web/database centric position. That's not bad, it's what I do, but it's got nothing to do with gaming.
Vipermmx wrote:
Also I noticed there is a book called C#, How to program is it any good?
If you want a C# book, buy Inside C# by Tom Archer. C# syntax is similar enough to C++ that if you've never coded, I'd recommend downloading the .NET framework, and one of the free IDE's, buying Tom's book and having a shot at it. It will help ease you into C++ if you want to get into gaming, and learning more than one language is never a bad thing.
But don't expect commercial games in C# from anyone but Microsoft in the immediate future.
Christian
Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002
Cats, and most other animals apart from mad cows can write fully functional vb code. - Simon Walton - 6-Aug-2002
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Gotta be honest with you... you are almost certainly never going to get a serious job writing AI in C#/VB/Java, probably not in C++ and likely not even in C. This kind of thing is usually done at the assembler level for the sake of speed. This is one of the reasons the games industry is so hard to get into.
C#, for several years at least, will probably largely be used in Rapid Application Development environments. This is where customers come in with a specific idea in mind and you need to develop it quickly.
It will probably come in big in network transmission and internet programming as well.
You'll certainly be able to write a nice game in C# and when the DirectX Development Kit comes out, that will become even more true. But I don't see the games industry being even remotely interested.
Sorry to be a pessimist and all that, but I think you might be a bit hopeful. Certainly use C# as a way to learn programming, certainly expect to be able to get a job in it if you're any good (or from some of the programmers I've worked with, even if you're not  ) but don't expect to learn programming in 5 weeks and be able to move into a job writing AI.
Paul
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The short answer is yes, get C# standard and learn C# in preference to C++. Arm yourself with a good book on object orientation, then a second dedicated to UML. Then you can decide where you want to go next.
If you want to write true AI (neural nets etc) then you want to use a dedicated language. Look around, do your research, you may even find a language that has a version which can run on .NET framework. Who knows, it might even run in the IDE!
I'm writing an exceptionally ambitious AI designed to analyze human actions, pinpointing weaknesses in their skill levels, coordination etc.. I'll have to leave you to guess exactly what it is! The current state of AI development for games is exceptionally weak so you are entering a market where, if you have the maths, you could do well.
For low level AI I have to recommend C# because it has less overhead than C++, is more object oriented than C++, and is much easier to learn. An additional problem with C++ is that it does not, in any way, force you to write object oriented programs. So if you are starting out you can pick up far too many bad habits with C++. C# is much better suited as a starter language for object oriented thinking.
People argue about the best object oriented language, but for my money the best of breed is either Smalltalk or Eiffel. Search on the web and you can find free downloads for both. Even IBM is giving away a download version of Smalltalk. For prototyping the most productive tool I've ever seen or used in Smalltalk for VisualAge.
I was brought up on C then C++. After Pascal I thought that C was great, and C++ was even better. But now I program in C# I get far more enjoyment out of writing creative code, and I am orders of magnitude more efficient.
C# is not perfect, but it offers a viable compromise between the speed of C++ and the power and purity of Smalltalk or Eiffel. I imagine that like Cobol, C++ is going to linger for a long time, principally in applications where real-time is critical (eg. games) however the writing is very clearly on the wall.
For telecommunications I write in C++ but never use dynamic memory allocation, because we cannot afford any memory leakage whatsoever. We also have several dedicated languages, especially for database manipulation where realtime is critical.
For banking, financials, and models which change on a daily basis (stocks and shares for instance) I prefer to use Smalltalk for VisualAge or similar.
For many business applications I use a work flow package with a nice visual designer, and something like Oracle for database.
But the one I try to avoid is C++ because like assembler it is labor intensive. The mechanisms it provides are also very weak, especially in regard to object orientation, so I find myself relying on infrastructure (code), patterns and templates. None of which are especially friendly to the newcomer like yourself.
Only change is constant
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Alastair Stell wrote:
For low level AI I have to recommend C# because it has less overhead than C++,
WHAT ? You're not aware of the size of the CLR then ?
Alastair Stell wrote:
is more object oriented than C++,
I disagree. Having everything derive from one base class is often clearly dumb. static main is one example of a hack that is needed by making OO a straightjacket.
Alastair Stell wrote:
An additional problem with C++ is that it does not, in any way, force you to write object oriented programs.
No, that is a strength.
Alastair Stell wrote:
if you are starting out you can pick up far too many bad habits with C++.
Only if you do it badly. Once you know how to program, you'll find yourself fighting C# as it conspires to treat you like an idiot.
Alastair Stell wrote:
C# is much better suited as a starter language for object oriented thinking.
I don't get why you think this. For starters, C++ has multiple inheritance, C# does not. C# is not MORE OO, it simply forces it onto you at all times. This is one more reason C++ is more powerful and flexible.
Alastair Stell wrote:
After Pascal I thought that C was great, and C++ was even better. But now I program in C# I get far more enjoyment out of writing creative code, and I am orders of magnitude more efficient.
I can't imagine why. What sort of code do you write ? Did you use C++, or did you use C++ as an OO C ? Because so long as you used C++ style file access, containers, strings, etc., I can't imagine there being much difference except that C++ containers are orders of magnitude nicer than C# ones, which suck in every direction.
Alastair Stell wrote:
But the one I try to avoid is C++ because like assembler it is labor intensive.
I can't begin to express the degree to which I disagree with this. C# is actually more verbose than C++, and as I said, if you use C++ properly, it's rarely that different from C# and certainly not labour intensive.
The one area in which I would agree is writing GUI stuff, but that has a lot to do with the IDE and with MFC, nothing to do with C++ itself.
Christian
Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002
Cats, and most other animals apart from mad cows can write fully functional vb code. - Simon Walton - 6-Aug-2002
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You are welcome to your opinion. I honestly don't know where to start regarding your comments, because what you regard as a virtue I consider a vice, and you no doubt reciprocate the sentiment.
Programmers have argued for years over this kind of topic, and I've never seen anyone persuade anyone! All I can say is that after fourteen years of programming in C++, I found C# to be a breath of fresh air. And at my age I would expect to be resistent to new ideas (I'm 46 tomorrow).
So, rather than disagree with you, I thought I would make a few observations for anyone out there who knows about object orientation, yourself included:
Data has a lifetime. We all know this, and as an analyst I consider data lifetime an important aspect of modelling. However what is not always realized is that data does not die, it simply becomes time-expired. Why is this you ask? Because data is history. If you keep it around and date-expire it, then you can always 'wind back the clock' to see what happened at a particular date and time. It turns out that everyone in the business world likes this sort of thing. Of course we often shunt the data off into shadow database, but it's still there and SQL generators can always recover it.
But data is only a part of the story. Messages between business objects are also a part of history. The sequence in which they flow, their payload, also reflects the history of events.
Which of course leads us to the notion of State. State not only determines what actions an object responds to, it also determines how the object responds. Some people think that State is a simple, ordinal value. Sometimes it is, but that's rare. More often it is a consequence of internal data and external associations. And if you understand all this, you also understand why a method is not the same as a function!
So, all objects, all associations, all methods have implied or actual state, all data and message have an active lifetime, they time expire but they do not truly die.
If this is true in the business world (and I find after twenty four years that it is) then wouldn't it be nice to have a language which models actions and data, state and messaging in this same way? Well, sadly their really isn't. Smalltalk is not bad and can facilitate many of the essential axioms. So too can Java (although I'm not especially fond of the Swing II engine etc). But C++? Yik! It brings nothing to the game except infinte possibilities to succeed... or fail.
C# does not solve all (or indeed many of) the shortcomings of C++, but it is fun to use, simple, and has several embedded object oriented principles such as the Interface pattern and class metadata (reflections etc). You don't have to duplicate your function templates into endless header files, you don't need multiple inheritance ever, not ever at all, and you don't have to worry yourself over endless memory management issues.
For games I imagine that C++ will remain the tool of choice for quite sometime to come, but for anyone in 'experimenting mode' I recommend C#. You can always rewrite the code in C++ because there are patterns in C++ which corrspond closely to the embedded C# mechanisms. But I would be startled if a newcomer could write reliable code, well structure, faster in C++ than in C#.
In the business world I'll try my best to avoid C++ from now on. I can read almost anyone's C# code, no matter how complex, but I've seen case of 34 way multiple inheritance in C++ (telecoms, VOIP) which it took me three months to truly figure out. I don't want to go back there, and I'll gladly cede you that domain.
And no, although we use C++ in telecoms, we always preallocate 100% of worst-case memory requirements because we simply cannot allow any memory leaks. For this reason we cannot use any version of MFC because this library has more holes than a camel has fleas. So we use STL, STL2, ATL etc., and for speed, coding efficiency and some beautiful virtual abstractions of communication protocol layers, we use every technique that C++ offers. Especially, it seems, multiple inheritance.
Only change is constant
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So if you are starting out you can pick up far too many bad habits with C++.
This reminds me of what we were told about becoming blind out of too much masturbation.
Joaquín M López Muñoz
Telefónica, Investigación y Desarrollo
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When you are writing games, your audience is the mass consumer. Do you imagine the mass consumer downloading and installing between 20MB and 120MB of MS run-times before being able to run a simple .exe ?
I am afraid that at the very least you'll have to wait the .NET framework, plus all satellites runtimes, is embedded in the OS.
May be offtopic, but never forget that a .NET .exe is not executable code, but IL code. It needs to be compiled before it runs, and this takes 5 seconds usually in the small apps I've written so far.
No need to say that these apps can't be put in the Startup registry key, because it lengthens startup time by 50%.
So it goes with screensavers and so on...
MS quote (http://www.microsoft.com/ddk) : As of September 30, 2002, the Microsoft® Windows® 2000 DDK, the Microsoft Windows 98 DDK, and the Microsoft Windows NT® 4.0 DDK will no longer be available for purchase or download on this site. Support for development will ship at the same time as the Windows XP Service Pack 1 (SP1) release.
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5 seconds?!?! My machine must be blessed...
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Some more direct advice if you're starting out. While programming in this country will take a down turn until this recession (or whatever it is) has ended, you can still get work in multimedia stuff. I recommend you get your teeth into Macromedia stuff (you can get a 30 day license on a free download of Studio MX 8.5). You should also take a look at DirectX if you want to go low level. This is essential for game writing (along with OpenGL).
The primary language for game writing is C or C++, but you can experiment in all sorts of languages, even Visual Basic! However until the official release of DirectX 9 SDK for .NET, I suggest you might want to get yourself a copy of C++ from Studio 6 (Standard edition should do I think). In fact if I were writing a game today I would consider Studio 6 ahead of Studio .NET (that comment may raise some controversy!)
I think in the long run that programmer salaries are set to fall a long way. We cannot compete with WiPro in Indian, and coders in China or Thailand. So if you are here in the USA you want to aim to get out of low-level programming as quickly as possible. Analyst, specialist, or something which requires close customer interaction. These domains are more difficult for overseas companies to dominate!
Gaming engines are really powerful and you can download any number of them. Most support C or C++ interfaces, some have their own associated language. Many of them are free (although if you want to use the engine commerically you may have to pay).
And finally, if you're bored, there is Cg from NVIDIA. This is a free download (C for graphics) and I have used this myself. It is fun, insightful if you're starting out, but I doubt it has a long term future (I might be wrong however as gaming is just a hobby for me).
Incidentally, if you check out your bookstore, there are many books on game writing and on AI for games. Personally I would like to find an AI which can adapt to my style of playing. Because I can easily wipe out the enemies at SOFII at the maximum setting, but everytime I go online I die!
Only change is constant
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Vipermmx wrote:
Im REALLY new to all this and want to start programming. I want to start on either C++ or C#. My friends have told me to go for C# as it will be used more often in afew years and its easier to get started on and has good support.
I found by learning C# i pickup on C/C++ to the point where i code easily (not always) read C/C++. Java didnt have this affect on me.
DirectX9 does contains managed functions, but this not managed DX, this is merely a managed wrapper for DX. According to sources, this will have about a 5% preformance overhead.
I would really recommend starting on C# (speaking from own experience, and multiple failed attempts at C++) and then once you have formed a solid base, move on from there. Like said above, dont expect miracles. You will need at least 6 months solid experience in C# before moving on.
Hope this helps
MYrc : A .NET IRC client with C# Plugin Capabilities. See
http://sourceforge.net/projects/myrc for more info. 
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Thanks all for the helpful advice. I will start out on C# and move on from there. I just need to get my head in the door and understand how programming works. If I get skilled in C# it should be possible to move on to others alot easier then not knowing.
Ill go with C# then once fully skilled see where I go from there. Ive always wanted to go the Assem route of programming. Lots of skill and a very powerful language.
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