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Shog9 wrote: doing it professionally kills the fun.
I beg to differ. As a consultant, I've worked on really cool projects that have been a blast to work on, and I get paid well for the work.
Shog9 wrote: the chance to compile a list of high-level requirements and then lose myself in the code for hours, days, weeks... is gone for good.
Oh, I don't know. I don't think you can outsource the creative part of coding. As to the grunt work, please, outsource it! I pretty much do this all the time with my clients, but yes, if I couldn't do this, I'd probably try making a living at stained glass.
Shog9 wrote: IT has become dull and lifeless to me; i feel old and wonder often why i even bother.
Seriously? With all the cool stuff coming out from Microsoft? (I'll get flamed for not mentioning all the other stuff out there too). Honestly, when I feel jaded with IT, I go out and invent something to amuse myself, and next thing you know, it's an open source project, or an article, or something to share with others.
Marc
Pensieve
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
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Marc Clifton wrote: As to the grunt work, please, outsource it!
What's the grunt work though? Isn't programming an art down to the level of the actual code?
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J. Dunlap wrote: Isn't programming an art down to the level of the actual code?
Oh no, not at all. Grunt work is things like, write the code that serializes the user's user interface options--window positions, toolbars, theme, etc. Even writing a custom property grid editor is grunt work, IMO. Or a custom DataGridView visualizer. Blech. Do one, the rest is grunt work. Another example--if I have 100 commands in a client/server system that need wrapper classes for serialization/deserialization, I can spec out what the parameters in each command is, but coding them? Grunt work! And a template generator will only get you so far.
The problem is, some grunt work is basically anywhere from 60 seconds to maybe an hour worth. Not easy to outsource. And some grunt work does require a certain level of expertise, but I label it grunt work because it detracts from the art of programming. 
Marc
Pensieve
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
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I may not be experienced and talented enough to re-architect a whole e-commerce system, but I sure as heck can keep it running, and do little tiny functional add-in's here and there.
Even though to most people, that's an example of grunt work, to me it's still fun. Believe it or not, sometimes what most others consider grunt work is actually a challenge to many people with rudamentary development skills - and there are tons of us out there. In my case, my small tweaks keep someone in the company happy and more able to do their job, and that's its own reward.
Oh sure, even the grunts still have grunt work - I think "grunt work" can be considered anything considerably beneath the average skill level of the developer in question. Heck, for all I know, quantum theory might be grunt work for someone out there.
So I feel while a lot of grunt work gets outsourced, they will only come up with new grunt work using new tools, and I'll be right there ready to jump on that train.
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Susan Hernandez wrote: Believe it or not, sometimes what most others consider grunt work is actually a challenge to many people with rudamentary development skills
That's a good point! I'm often excited to learn something new, but sadly, many things turn into grunt work after the novelty wears off.
Marc
Pensieve
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
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Exactly. It's fun the first few times..after that it can quickly become a chore.
I awlays remember that there's always somehting new to learn, some new technology to have a go with, if I can get well paid at the same time - even better!
yeah I love my job.
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I think it's interesting to see the different perceptions of what grunt work is. I am right now knee deep in some grunt work and I realize, I would much rather have someone else do it.
I agree with Marc, the fun stuff is architecting. Trust me I own a development shop and we've outsourced. They really don't know when to employ a singleton and other patterns. I have to tell them to do this. This is the really fun stuff. Deciding which patterns to use, I even design the database before outsourcing the grunt work. And to be honest, with code generators become more and more mature, the outsourcing may be non-existent in a few years. The fourth generation languages have really made it nice to design a system at a high level. The actual work of implementation then becomes almost trivial. IMHO I feel this is really the way to go because a developer can create more with less. But this is still a few years off.
Anyways, great topic!
The other Marc
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I agree...I love coding anything once...after that it becomes tedious...and outsourcing starts to look interesting 
I find myself much happier in the project planning, testing new concepts, reading articles, etc than I do actually coding for hours on end...
I often think I would have been better off becoming a computer science professor - so I get paid to learn and challenge myself, inventing new things, solving old problems with new solutions, etc...
Thats what I love about computers...coding something which I already know how to solve...just bores the heck out of me...
I would love to act as a consultant too, but sadly I have no idea how to even start 
p.s-It was nice to read your opinions on outsourcing and your overall perspective on programming...I have much respect for you and everything you have done, contributed, etc...I would follow off the face of the earth or darn close anyways :P
I enjoy your articles, insight and experience...keep up the awesome work
Cheers
It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
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Shog9 wrote: chance to compile a list of high-level requirements and then lose myself in the code for hours, days, weeks... is gone for good.
that's the big reason i keep plugging away with my side business. it pays pretty well now, but i'd probably still do it if it didn't.
Shog9 wrote: IT has become dull and lifeless to me; i feel old and wonder often why i even bother.
four months ago i was feeling the same way. the way i fixed it was to find a new job, doing something in a different domain, with different people, in a different part of town. that feeling went away the first week.
Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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To me its all about the code...Even if I didnt get paid and there where no jobs for programers left....id program for myslef. I guess im just addicted LOL
Pablo
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I fully expect to be in control of my own venture within 5 years. Since that will make me management and thus the enemy does it still count as IT? Who knows?
"Until the day of his death, no man can be sure of his courage" -- Jean Anouilh
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Intellectual Terrestrian ? I am... Insipid Technician ? I am also...
Kochise
In Code we trust !
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That depends on the definition you use for the word is [/end political humour]
"Until the day of his death, no man can be sure of his courage" -- Jean Anouilh
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It dependes on what your venture is about. If it's an IT company, even if you are in management you can consider yourself to be in IT.
Luis Alonso Ramos
Intelectix
Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
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Always considered getting a job done there so I could finally master spanish.
"Until the day of his death, no man can be sure of his courage" -- Jean Anouilh
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If I am not dead. 
If you vote me down, my score will only get lower
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Same here.
Never send a human to do a machine's job Agent Smith
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keep all that COBOL running. Don't they? 
Chris Meech
I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar]
The America I believe in has always understood that natural harmony is only one meal away from monkey burgers. [Stan Shannon]
GOOD DAY FOR: Bean counters, as the Australian Taxation Office said that prostitutes and strippers could claim tax deductions for adult toys and sexy lingerie. [Associated Press]
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Chris Meech wrote: keep all that COBOL running. Don't they?
Not to forget the unmanaged code - they'll all be in maintenance mode pretty soon (except for kernel mode stuff).
Regards,
Nish
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I'm thinking if software industry goes like fashion trends:
<H3>"...->unmanaged->managed->unmanaged->managed->..."</H3>
how many of us will be here in 5 yrs.
- It's easier to make than to correct a mistake.
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> managed->unmanaged
Did this ever happen?
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Just kidding, but no guarantee it won't.
- It's easier to make than to correct a mistake.
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Daniel Desormeaux wrote: > managed->unmanaged
Did this ever happen?
LOL. Name a language that existed before the ASM/C world in the 80's. It was probably managed code: Business BASIC, Cobol to start the ball rolling.
DanB
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