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Don't get me started on frameworks
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RugbyLeague wrote: Don't get me started on frameworks
I wish that that phrase had been on everyone's lips for the past few years.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Andrew Torrance wrote: I spend longer thinking about other peoples frameworks than it would have taken
me to write half the things from scratch .
I just had to upvote this.
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Maybe you just need a new job?
I think that there are two types of programmers, career programmers and "I'm doing this because I love it" programmers, and there's nothing wrong with either, I would say the industry needs both.
If you do it because you love it and you are working in a place designed for, and with other, career programmers, you're going to have a bad time!
Equally, if it's just a career for you, and you're working other programmers who would be there even if nobody was paying them, it's going to suck.
So maybe you fall into one category, and you're working at a company designed for the other category?
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RugbyLeague wrote: Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
Ahh, I believe I see the problem. Put the web down, and take a step back.
Before the web, there were other types of things that required programming. In fact, it turns out that there still are things that require programming not related to the web; plenty of it.
I would argue that you should give up hacking, and shift over to programming 
This guy may need some help Drones[^] (Hopefully he is not planning on connecting it to the web).
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The problem is I am being asked to do web stuff - not something I have ever done before. It's like wading through treacle.
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After translating the new word you just taught me, "treacle", to "molasses", I would agree.
Ironically, I think that would be a good name for "The Web", "The Treacle", or the "Inter-treacles"...
If you like programming, find a job that requires the type of programming and tools that you enjoy.
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I started my own business to develop the tools I enjoy. Unfortunately I sold it
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Sounds like a case of Android development with NDK.
modified 20-Oct-19 21:02pm.
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RugbyLeague wrote: I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools...
So, nothing is new...this is what we do right? Maybe a vacation is in order? Cheers 
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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I woke up and found myself in the Era of Developers fighting with tools other than working on the solution!
I'd really like to know how real programming was like back then, maybe, individually, as Java Maniac, can contribute to it! 
<£dward>~c0d£~
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Well, I worked on COBOL/Fortran/PL1 systems on minis (TI and Prime) - there were no frameworks or anything like that on those computers - you had the language, a screen package and an ISAM package - no Google so you had the various manuals (in the case of PL/1 on the Prime we didn't have a manual so I taught myself looking at the Primos source code) - we had Emacs with Peel (emacs lisp on the prime) which was about the only difficult tool to get to grips with)
Of course since then I have used C, C++, C# and various languages of my own design
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Try living with the massive source control nightmare IBM Irrational Clear Case. 
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RugbyLeague wrote: I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution.
Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
Rugby, you're not alone here. The programming field has gotten very confusing and is, in many ways, a pain-in-the-ass.
The gig I'm on ought to last another 5 or so years. (I'm the SME for a product that's being phased out). I've been at this for nearly 40 years now. (I'm 56). I have developed my own technology for developing products for Windows desktop, mainly. (Yeah I can do a little web development, but nothing approaching what I can do on the desktop). It's based around the 2008 version of Visual Studio and a few other tools. Like you, I'm sick of fiddling with the tools and all the attendant upgrades, etc. What I have in my toolbox is it, as far as I'm concerned. When they stop working (unlikely, Microsoft desktop ain't going anywhere) then I'll just go drive a bus or work in my wood shop.
I still love programming: I write some applications for my own use (I've developed a nice budgeting system and some other things) and I am automating the co-op farm we're involved in (in exchange for our share). I do have a couple other "products" under development but whether I ever market and sell them or not ... who knows? Having fun doing that. As a "career", though, I really think I'm through with it. I've discovered life recently. Even bought a motorcycle which I've wanted to do for years and am spending more and more time in my woodworking shop.
We've paid off everything except the house and we're working on that. I think there's life after programming, though as I said, I still love doing it but in a more relaxed way when I feel like it.
-CB
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Sounds like you have it pretty much sorted.
My wife is talking about us buying a small holding and running a campsite - we are vintage VW bus owners - so that would be a good option.
I will still program, I enjoy programming language design and compiler writing so would keep my eye in with that
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CB.. WOW!.. I could have written your EXACT reply ! I'm 54, sounds like I do a *litte* more web work than you do, however same here (winding down, bought a motorcycle, paying it all off, *finally* doing some LIFE stuff after a 35 year career in computers! )
To Ruby, I agree with quite afew here, change it up, do something FOR YOU in programming. Get it lighter and on a dev cycle that YOU like and get back to enjoying what you like to do - with out the hassles. And scale it back to enjoing it... not sweating over it.
I have tossed out MANY of the tools and issues that frustrate me, and started enjoying simpicity of *programming* instead of hacking everything to get it all working.
--C
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"Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together."
Totally agree.
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Yay
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I feel the same way.
If I have to work with the web to be viable I'd rather change careers entirely. That and I've seen too many really great technologies abandoned on a whim (Silverlight) - I cannot be expected to learn an entirely new set of tools/frameworks/IDEs every time someone at Microsoft/Apple/Oracle/etc. gets an upset stomach.
I won't miss this at all.
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I never used Silverlight but I have used WPF extensively (without, shock horror, MVVM) and loved it - hopefully it can be revived
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I have a 3 year plan as well, though it may take 4. After we pay off the student loans, we are going to live in the woods. We've been spending lots of energy learning to do it correctly, so we can enjoy life.
I'm tired of the whole rat race.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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Do not give up, you are only in the wrong scope.
If you don't like web don't do web.
If you don't like mobile don't do mobile.
If you don't like cloud don't do cloud.
There is so much to be done up there, no need to follow the crowd.
You want to get love of programming back ? come join us to build stuff around Bitcoin.
I am serious, by learning about it you'll find again your love for programming coming back in no time.
modified 19-Sep-14 9:08am.
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I only agree with you in the fact that web development is a step backwards. To me it's like returning to the dumb terminal time but putting lights and hacks to that terminal so that the user has a "better experience".
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Dude, take it from a grizzled old timer, these problems run in cycles.
As much as I like the idea of less competition, I dislike the thought of anyone leaving programming even more.
Bad bosses, bad organizations, bad practices all get recognized as bad, given enough time.
A place where I suffered all of the above, eventually had me a happy man, I outlived all the problems.
True, the bad cycle started up again and I'm no longer there, but your career is never going to be linear. There will be ups and downs.
Hang in there, or hang somewhere else, but stay true to programming.
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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