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OriginalGriff wrote: They aren't just not user-fixable; most of them aren't even dealer-fixable any more
There is of course a very good reason for that - the very construction methodologies that make them reliable and very cheap are not amenable to human construction techniques.
OriginalGriff wrote: I'm afraid that this is the way the world has gone.
Afraid? Again this is a matter of economics.
OriginalGriff wrote: And legislation etc. is so tight that all those sensors and computer maps are necessary to keep the car running and not emit too much cr@p, so what can you do?
There is quite a bit more to a modern car than just legislated functionality. The very things that make things like ABS, all wheel driver and automatic transmissions possible are driven by complex technology. And there are sales features such as air pressure monitoring, alarm systems and surround sound hidef tvs which also add to the complexity.
People seem to forget that the reason dad (or granddad) spent so much time under the hood of the car was because he couldn't afford to have it fixed and it required a lot of tinkering to keep it running.
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Jeez, judging by the constant complaining about everything in this world and how it is getting worse, I wonder how we are not living in caves yet? Or it's more likely that people pull those complaints out of their sunshines.
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I had an engineer from Ford motor tell me 35 years ago that they were engineering cars so that the average Joe couldn't work on them. More money is made on maintenance then on sales and I assume that other industries have gone the same route.
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That's true Mike. The most I dare do to my VW Polo is lift the hood/bonnet and top up the screen washer and check the oil once in a while. When the battery died last year, the call out service agent put some fancy gizmo on the terminals and he pressed a couple of buttons and waited for a printout to spit out. He looked at the figures, scratched his chin and phoned for authorisation to replace the battery. That the car couldn't start without being jumped was not something that was used to arrive at the inexorable conclusion that the battery was dead. No, it was the printout the authorisation firm wanted and not the word of the bloke with x-years experience under his belt.
My trusty old Series II Land Rover was all mechanical. If it didn't start you could work right back through most problems with a voltmeter, feeler gauges, and a bit of spit and polish. When the EMS light on my VW's dash lights up, only the pooter can tell what's wrong and ta-ching, only VW can suss it out. Maybe once WW3 or WW4 are out of the way we'll get back to first principles, the horse and cart.
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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I still do a lot on my old 98 Ford Ranger truck; change oil, plugs, wires, put a water pump in it last year and a radiator this year but when it comes to the computer stuff I ain't got a clue. A/C hasn't worked in years because I can't afford to fix it and honestly don't like using them, I'm a 255 guy (2 windows down 55 mph) and the heater went out last year and I don't want to take the while dash apart to get at the heater core, it doesn't get that cold here anyway.
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I replaced my Mitsubishi Shogun a couple of years ago - the old 2.8 turbo diesel became a less-old Merc A160.
The Shogun wasn't easy to work on - all the bits were big and heavy - but the only electrical parts it needed was the glow plugs (and the computer could be bypassed with a manual switch) and the fuel cutoff solenoid to kill the engine. The fuel injection was mechanical even! Now I have the Merc, and it's not too bad to work on if you have a OBDII reader - the engine light came on, and the reader told me it was the cam hall sensor. A quick trip to ebay, £40 and a look at the internet for instructions, then fifteen minutes to replace, test, and clear the light with the reader. And how much did a dealer want for this service?  It's £40 to connect up the reader, then they whistle backwards through their teeth at the display...
So it's not that bad, really - if you have the tools. And you can buy a cheap reader for a polo on FleaBay[^] - but if you do, spend a little extra, and get one that clears the fault codes as well when you've fixed it.
This message is manufactured from fully recyclable noughts and ones. To recycle this message, please separate into two tidy piles, and take them to your nearest local recycling centre.
Please note that in some areas noughts are always replaced with zeros by law, and many facilities cannot recycle zeroes - in this case, please bury them in your back garden and water frequently.
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I haven't taken a car to a dealer for work in 25 years, and the last one I did entrust to their care they never fixed. I figured out what they couldn't and fixed it myself. There are things I'll use a professional mechanic for, when I don't have the time or specialized (expensive) tools, but for most things, I do it myself. One thing I learned in college - while working in a service station, not in class - was that wannabe mechanics first go to work at dealerships to get free training and practice, then they go to work for a real mechanic where the pay is better. With years of experience behind them, and a good collection of specialized tools, they then open their own shops.
Will Rogers never met me.
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Exactly, I've never taken my vehicle to a dealership they always want twice as muc as a real mechanic and like you say we are paying for their OJT. I do most of my own work also then I not only know it's done right but it's a hell of a lot cheaper.
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Mike Hankey wrote: I had an engineer from Ford motor tell me 35 years ago that they were engineering cars so that the average Joe couldn't work on them.
The problem with the expressed opinion is that actually doing that on a company wide basis is both difficult and marketing madness. After all what is another company going to do once they find out that Fords explicit policy is to make cars poorly?
It also fails to ignores the realities of day to day delivery requirements and economics. What software developer has never had some less than optimal piece of code go into production and remain there?
And if one presumes it is in fact company policy how do you enforce it? How do you recruit young engineers? How do you keep them? How do you measure that doing a feature one way meets the goal?
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Have you ever worked on your auto?
I've been working on them for 40+ years and the number of specialty tools and design decisions that require special care has increased dramatically. Computerization being the most complicated but there are other considerations.
I have a manual clutch in my truck and to drop the transmission used to be a few bolts and a u-joint now I have to remove the exhaust system, remove a cross frame piece unhook sensors and the like, the u-point then I can finally remove the transmission. I could go on and on....
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Mike Hankey wrote: that require special care has increased dramatically
And so your conclusion is that the only possible reason is that the company forces the engineers to make parts like that so the company can sell more tools?
Mike Hankey wrote: used to be a few bolts and a u-joint
And what did it require to adjust the clutch in a Model T Ford?
Mike Hankey wrote: I could go on and on
Used to be that I could build a phone from scratch. Used to be that I could make direct modifications to all of the electronics in my house. Used to be that I could buy a kit to build a TV from scratch. Used to be that I could buy a kit to build a computer. Used to be that basically the only way to learn almost anything was to go find someone that already knew how to do it and get them to teach you - or throw a lot of stuff away figuring out how to do it. Used to be that one could own almost all of the computer books in the world and keep them in a single bookcase.
I could go on and on but despite that none of those changes are due to conspiracies.
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I seriously doubt that was their motivation and never was. Given the new technologies, drive for efficiency and crash worthiness, they had little choice but to put maintainability down the list. On the other hand, cars are a hell of a lot more reliable than they were even thirty years ago.
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Joe Woodbury wrote: they had little choice but to put maintainability down the list.
Presuming it was ever 'up' the list in the first place.
It was probably possible to design a Model T in such a way that one could actually look at it an go "this is easy to maintain" but I doubt it is possible to do that at the design level with any modern US car due to complexity.
And it is quite similar to software where people think they are designing software to be maintainable but until it is maintained there is no way to judge the success of that or not. And that is given that companies that create software must often pay to maintain it - they have a vested interest in doing and still fail almost 100%.
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At one time, Briggs & Stratton were the gold standard for small utility gasoline engines. Apparently, contrary to what the chemists tell us, gold tarnishes too.
Software Zen: delete this;
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I believe they're still excellent engines, but a little forethought in layout, and attention to technical documentation - the manual is quite sketchy - would make them repairable, as well as long lived.
Will Rogers never met me.
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I think what you're observing is that manufacturers design for manufacturability, not maintainability. Back when engines were hand-assembled (even on an assembly line), the motions and actions required guaranteed human accessibility. Now that most of this kind of thing is robotic, that's no longer the case. It's probable that by locating this bolt here, and that one there at that orientation, they shaved 100ms off the assembly time for the engine. That translates to money, of course.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Sadly, I think that's a better description than what many believe - that it's a deliberate attempt to prevent home mechanics from working on stuff. Much more likely, I think, that some "efficiency expert" who will never meet a customer determined the optimum placement for robotic assembly, an oversight, rather than actual malice.
Will Rogers never met me.
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That's good information! I know a couple of gas stations around here offer E-15 fuel, but I didn't know that the unlabeled products also contain ethanol. I'll be sure to put a bit of Stabil in every tank! Thanks! 
Will Rogers never met me.
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Roger, I wouldn't worry about the car so much, especially if you are a frequent driver. Anything built in the last 10 years was designed to deal with the higher temps and corrosive nature of ethanol. Definitely use the Stabil in anything else though. We have one chain of stations here that advertise ethanol free gas. It's the only place I get the gas I use for the mower, pressure washer, and weed eater, plus I use the Stabil since 5 gallons will last for a year or more.
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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Roger Wright wrote: a Sears & Roebuck Craftsman Chipper/Shredder
Well, there's your problem.
The newer models are completely incompatible because they produce baby blocks, not chips/shreds.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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This one is hardly a "newer" model - it's been in the yard for 20+ years now, but hasn't been started in about 10.
Happily, I have all the necessary parts installed now, the carb is rebuilt, and I get a solid spark on the plug. Time to buy some gas and start the setup process.
Will Rogers never met me.
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consuming SAP web services through WCF client is real pain in South? I finally gave up and added good old web service reference.
"Bastards encourage idiots to use Oracle Forms, Web Forms, Access and a number of other dinky web publishing tolls.", Mycroft Holmes[ ^]
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I don't see why it would make a difference if you're in the South or the North.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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You don't know SAP stands for South's Always Painful?
"Bastards encourage idiots to use Oracle Forms, Web Forms, Access and a number of other dinky web publishing tolls.", Mycroft Holmes[ ^]
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