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Shog9 wrote: In the past year, i've had to deal with two different consultants. [...] the former, who happily replaced carefully optimized datastructures with DOM + XPath, killing performance in a way that took months of work to undo and whose fast-and-loose attitude towards coding resulted in numerous crashes that we're still in the process of tracking down and fixing. There's nothing wrong with a high-level abstraction... so long as you understand what's being abstracted.
Perhaps your issue is not the language used, but the person hired. A fast-and-loose coder is not the typical fruition of learning C#, but a result of that specific person's attitude towards work performance. The stereotype you suggest is really a red herring argument of the foulest order, but I still feel your pain 
Having little exposure to programming, but much to IT, I found both Basic 5/6 and x.NET languages extremely easy to learn. It also helps that I'm developing an IS for my college job (to get that so desired documented [ ] experience before I graduate).
Regardless, I'm of the mind that learning a language is best if placed in the results-oriented framework. Get it done and done well, or don't get paid. That seems to put a nicely sized rocket up people's behinds, and a few more neuronal connections take place in the process.
The language learned is a matter of semantics, really having little to do with, indeed, any being better than the other. All of them are pretty fat these days, so my advice to those reading this: Go with what you feel most comfortable, whatever will give you more options as a career, or whatever your work (coding project or occupation) requires. Learn, however, as much as you can about as many launguges as you can!
Life is like a dollar bill: It may not seem like much, but, if spent wisely, it can yield great rewards. - Ian Westerfield
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John C wrote: When I was starting out I couldn't learn enough esoterica.
In my experience this is a typical, and healthy, response of an enquiring mind.
John C wrote: But I still maintain that if the question is how to start out programming as a complete raw beginner who has zero programming knowledge but just want's to dabble in it then the most forgiving platform possible is the way to go because they are just kindling an interest not trying to get a job at the beginning.
You said it better in your earlier post - the combination of the first language and first project should ignite that spark that 'this is fun' and 'I can really do stuff with this'. I started with a basic interpreter - it was great fun! Unfortunately too many courses take the view that there is a correct way and it has to be done this way from the start. In my experience this often stifles creativity.
John C wrote: As a results oriented person who also makes business software in .net I would be perfectly happy hiring someone to program for me who had only c# experience and no knowledge of C or how a CPU works etc. I'm not running an university, I'm running a business and if they are a crackerjack c# developer that understands the importance of results then that's all good. What I do *NOT* want is some C guy who insists on wasting hours in optimizing stuff that doesn't need it or arguing about how some minor unimportant part of the app should be coded unecessarily etc which is the impression I get from the ivory tower types here sometimes.
Think of how much you have learnt on the job, and how much the 'esoterica' you learnt is used to put what you do in context (for example giving you an appreciation for what is going on under the hood of .NET). If you hire a new graduate, s/he may be full of esoterica and also have to learn a similar amount on the job. If the university was to simply train C# programmers, how are they going to cope in 10 years time when more esoteric concepts emerge and .NET looks like the stoneage? The esoterica that they learnt may not be relevant, but they hoopefully it will have given the confidence to attack and learn new paradigms, not just the popular one at the time they left uni.
Peter
"Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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I think C# is the most simple language (after English  )
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visit: http://pmartike.deviantart.com/
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English may seem simple to us natives, but to others, it is filled with completely illogical connections and twisted morphemes. The military classifies our own language as a level 5 (the hardest to learn and also the only language in this classification).
I have to agree with you - for the most part – that C# is pretty easy to get. I started with Basic 5 then went to 6 and .NET. Learning new syntax was the most difficult part of my transition from Basic to C#. A “basic” example would be opening a child form from a parent. Seems simple enough as a concept, but when being used to simply calling the child form using something like “newForm()” in Basic to actually having to create a new instance of the form and then calling that instance in C# is pretty crazy. I get why it happens this way, but still awkward.
Life is like a dollar bill: It may not seem like much, but, if spent wisely, it can yield great rewards! - Ian Westerfield
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The correct address is http://lexico.mobi
Lexico vs C# to beginners is at
http://lexico.mobi[^] 
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C language is the best language for keeping all concepts, powerfull language. After that he can able to learn any language.
Truth Can'nt be changed
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I think C would be a terrible first language for most... anyway, this is the path I took:
3rd Grade: Logo
4th - 8th: Basic
9th Grade: Turbo Basic & Pascal
10th - 11th: Pascal
12th: Stuck on Pascal (ran out of classes in HS)
Then in college (I skipped the intro classes which were in Pascal because I took AP stuff in high school):
Freshman: x86 Assembly, Scheme, C, Ada (yeah, I know)
Once I got to college, we were expected to be able to pick up the languages on our own for the most part, and each language was just used to teach other concepts. C, C++ and C# are what currently pay the bills.
Faith is a fine invention
For gentlemen who see;
But microscopes are prudent
In an emergency!
-Emily Dickinson
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Hi all
i start my progrmming carear from c langauge.
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I don't think C would be TERRIBLE for the first language. Seems to me it would pay off in longer term.
I just don't get how would beginner start with assembler.
dArK cHAriSmA
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For me it was VB -> C# -> Java (Then I gave up with Java because it was useless and I prefered C#) -> Back to C# -> C++/C
Now I hate VB, don't use C++ very often and mostly use C#
And somewhere along the line I also learned Python because the prize money in a competition I could have entered was 6x more if I used Python. 
---
The sum of the intelligence of the world is constant. The total number of people is always increasing.
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12-16 yrs => Visual Basic 6
15-17 yrs => Visual Basic .NET
16-now => C#, HTML, ASP, ASP.NET
17-now => C, Python, Java, JavaScript, VBScript
And the lists go on...
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The most important factor for a completely raw beginner in learning how to program initially is having fun. To have fun you need to be dabbling in an environment that is very forgiving. C is *not* the way to go if you want to get into programming and have no prior knowledge or experience.
That's like saying if you want to learn how to drive you should first start with learning how to assemble a car engine.
Suggesting C and assembly etc seems like some sort of malicious boys club mentality where those that are in try to keep out those who want to get in after them.
We're not talking about learning to program for serious career reasons, we're talking about those initial first steps when someone thinks it might be interesting and wants to dabble in it. Same way most of us started I'd guess.
Sure, my first programming language was assembly but this is the 21st century. 
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying."
- David Ogilvy
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John C wrote: we're talking about those initial first steps when someone thinks it might be interesting and wants to dabble in it
I agree. My first language was QBasic, and although its not my favorite language by any means I don't regret starting with it while playing around in the kiddie pool.
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I couldn't agree more.
Ask not whether it is useful. Ask what it is useful for.
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Agree with most of what you said, but..
John C wrote: That's like saying if you want to learn how to drive you should first start with learning how to assemble a car engine.
IMHO, not a valid comparison.
Also, Assembly may be a bit too harsh, yes. But I believe that C/C++ should be the languages new people start off with. Why? They then learn how to do certain things, why they are important, etc. And then they discover the world that is Other Languages, and these other languages help them by doing much of the hard/tedious stuff that you must do yourself in C/C++. Then, people have an idea of how they benefit by using, say, C# over C or C++.
And on a somewhat related note, I overheard this the other day in university:
Dude A: "...yeah, I'll be doing it in Java.."
Dude B: "So you prefer Java too?"
Dude A: "Yeah, its so much easier to work with than C++.."
Dude B: "Soo true! C++ is just ...weird...why do people like it so much when Java is so much better to work with??..."
Dude A: "yeah"
says a lot. -_-
"impossible" is just an opinion.
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A starting language for a new developer should be something simple and rewarding with little effort. It's a tease to get them hooked and comfortable with the idea of programming. Once they have then they can move on to more complex things, perhaps pursue a career at it but what some here seem to be advocating is that if they don't start with assembler or C they will somehow be ruined for life which is utter hogwash.
I think my analogy is perfect, learning *always* starts simple enough to be satisfiying to the student and rewarding and moves on to more complex stuff over time. That's the recipe for *really* teaching anything to anyone.
C and C++ are fast becoming niche languages in any case so starting a new student off on them is a slap in their face right from the start. If someone want's to learn how to become a carpenter you don't start them off with tree biology.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying."
- David Ogilvy
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i started with C64 BASIC and 6502 Assembler. both were fun.
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My first programming language at school was QBASIC. My first programming language in Windows was C++/MFC. I believe that the first language will depend on what area the developer will want to work, that's the option I've selected.
Best regards,
Lizandro Campbell
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C was my first language and I found it no more difficult than learning any other high level language. I'd even go on to say that it is much simpler that C# or Java as a beginners language since it has far less language features.
I can't disagree with you about dabblers. My only concern is that they pick up bad habits learning something like vb where they put the entire logic of the program into a click event handler.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
- -Lazarus Long
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"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
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Yep, he was a big fan of ALGOL 60 and reverse polish notation. Maybe nubies should start there?
Jon
Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Started with Java - NIIT - I still remember the program that got me addicted to programming it was a cat running across the screen a simple animation sequence and that got me thinking, mm aha! Created few cool apps, still have the code for those apps!
Moved on to VB. Wrote a school database for an NGO!
Moved on to HTML, DHTML, Javascript Website stuff
Well then the real thing C!
Then it was VB.Net for my MCA project!
Then it was C++(VC). First time I saw CFont::CreateFont I was thinking do I really want to do this. 
The book that got me going with VC++ was Yeshwant kanetkar book, deeply indepted to him. Also indepted to Dundas India and Code Project for the job opportunity that they gave! Still remember going through Ultimate toolbox and grid source code! Phew!
Nibu thomas
Microsoft MVP for VC++
Code must be written to be read, not by the compiler, but by another human being.
Programming Blog: http://nibuthomas.wordpress.com
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Hi all
I have some problem for convert file from linux to "fle.txt".I have file from linux but I don't know file something.My teacher want to convert this file to .txt .Now I have code fortran programming to convert this file,but my teacher want to change to C programming.Now I can't coding C programming. Please help me!!!!!!!!!!
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Go to school and learn something more productive to your career.
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