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PeterK_ wrote: Team Edition is too expensive for anyone here
Maybe banks need to come out with special financing options for people who wanna buy it
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I cant start to explain what team system can do for a company.
once you get all the systems up and running & everyone gets adjusted to the processes it introduces, you can very quickly generate large scale applications, where all the I's are dotted and t's crossed. it makes so many things trackable, and integrating so many technologies that it makes the thought of *not* using team system seem like an opportunity cost loss. TS streamlines end to end application lifecycles.
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That's all very well, but if your company gags on the price tag (and many have, from what I've seen) the MS solution won't help you a bit.
Another issue is that key parts of Team System (e.g Unit Test and Round trip modelling) just don't work with native code (this was confirmed to us by MS reps at the London launch event on 14th November). For the many teams doing primarily native code development, that reduces VSTS almost to a source control, bug tracking solution rather than the all-encompassing process it is designed to be - and for that, the cost is even less attractive.
Anna
Currently working mostly on: Visual Lint
Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch
"Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart"
- A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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I think this gets closer to the real problem with Team System for smaller organizations: too many extra features and too high a cost in order to get good source control and support for those who wear many hats.
Peter Kryszak
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our company has 5 developers (making for almost half of our company's total employee count), and we've found it makes that much of a difference.
If you dont think its cost effective, you must not have seen it in action, or else you're not selling enough software / solutions to make it viable (in which case it isnt necessary to begin with).
I'm seriously considering purchasing my own copy for personal use.
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I'm a contractor at a US city. Money is not abundant for us but we have to serve more than 10,000 employees and millions of citizens. It is usually much easier to get time to develop some capability than it is to buy a product.
Peter Kryszak
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MadHatter ¢ wrote: If you dont think its cost effective, you must not have seen it in action, or else you're not selling enough software / solutions to make it viable (in which case it isnt necessary to begin with).
Its not that it may not be cost effective, simply that many companies will not (however much their dev team tries to persuade them of its value) spend that much on software per user.
At the last company I worked for it took us 4 years to persuade them to buy an MSDN Pro subscription for the entire team (15 people), so there's no way in hell they'd fork out £7k each for the full VSTS subscription...
As I said before, MS has missed an opportunity here by only targetting the enterprise. Don't get me started on the lack of native code support in VSTS either.
MadHatter ¢ wrote: I'm seriously considering purchasing my own copy for personal use.
You've got £7k to spare to spend on software?
Anna
Currently working mostly on: Visual Lint
Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch
"Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart"
- A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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so the team foundation server is around 3k (USD).
developer, arch., and tester subscriptions are around 5.5k (USD) each. not everyone needs to have one of these (although it would be easier). this cost drops down to around 3k (USD) if you have a current subscription and renew it.
to me, having the ability to cut arch. dev. test, deployment, and maint. cost of a product internally pays for whatever the cost of migrating to a truely innovative system.
and again, its not that I have 10k laying around, its that I see great value in this product that I see myself loosing money by not using it.
/bb|[^b]{2}/
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As a small shop we each work on multiple roles (depending on the product I'm an architect, developer, tester PM and of course Managing Director) so we'd each need a full subscription - and for the first yeasr that is £7,222.11 (Grey Matter price) each!
Given we've only just started selling our first product and have no venture capital we simply can't afford it - no matter what the productivity benefits may be!
To add to that our work is mainly unmanaged code, and for the VSTS reduces to largely a bug tracking/source control solution (the architect and tester capabilities sell unmanaged code a long way short). For that, the price tag is even less worthwhile I'm afraid.
Anna
Currently working mostly on: Visual Lint
Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch
"Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart"
- A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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That's exactly the core of the problem. The pricing is set for the Enterprise, but there is no equivalent package in the product line-up for smaller teams.
Anna
Currently working mostly on: Visual Lint
Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch
"Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart"
- A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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I totally agree with the stuff above. Also at the same time Sun is releasing it's top notch developer tools for free on Java's 10th anniversary - this might be one of the reasons why Java is as popular as it is (i.e. the tools are either free or cheaper).
I personally wouldn't need the teaming options but Code Analysis, Unit and Stress Testing integrated (although I love NUnit) and design of distributed applications are a great benefit (no more 3rd party crummy tools like Borland Together).
I have to agree that this is a leap backwards from VS2003's full editions that Microsoft's ISV partners has got before. Team System is of course better, but definitely not worth price tag of over 10.000 USD - me and my customers can't afford it.
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Perhaps the guys here need to wait a while for NTeam. Though I suspect it too will be .NET-centric, not native code-centric.
Kevin
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So, what's the difference between VS 2005 c++ express and the other versions?
The only thing that's mentioned on the MS site is that it doesn't have MFC or ATL, or the profiler. Is that it?
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http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/products/compare/default.aspx[^]
------- sig starts
"I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Thanks.
What does "User experience...Streamlined" mean?
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I haven't got a clue, but I have the same question... :/
And WTF is a "user experience"?
------- sig starts
"I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: WTF is a "user experience"?
It's the difference between buying Team System with or without Preparation H beforehand.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Hi all,
in my company as well as many others we are concerned about the test capabilities of our team. Is there any tool out of the hat from MS that automates and ease the testing process?
Thanks a lot.
Regards,
Andrea
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I thought the tester edition does that. You can group tests and run that group, run single tests, or run the whole test.
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Hello,
I got my hands on a (legal) copy of the standard edition on the 7th of Nov. I can't live without it anymore. I just love it. The .NET framework 2.0, C++, C# intellisense, everything.. A shame that I have to port everything I write back to .NET 1.1 since they don't have 2005 at school. Maybe I shouldn't write my projects code in 2005, but I just love the whole IDE and I already can't live without the improved intellisense
Behind every great black man...
... is the police. - Conspiracy brother
Blog[^]
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I'm hoping CP sells the Standard version (with a Dundas bundle). I don't appear to need the Pro version.
------- sig starts
"I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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I am also going for the standard version. The only thing the pro version has that the standard version does not have, as far as I could tell, is SQL Server 2005 developer edition. I already have MSDE 2000 wich suits my needs so why pay an extra US$800 for something I do not really need. I hope I can get it from CP as I would really like to support this site financially
"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03
"Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" - mYkel - 21 Jun '04
"There's not enough blatant self-congratulatory backslapping in the world today..." - HumblePie - 21 Jun '05
Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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Do you happen to know what a "user experience" is, and how the "streamlined" one in the Standard edition is different from the "full" one in the Pro version?
------- sig starts
"I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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I have not got a clue. But as long as the functionality is there, for $800 I can work around any differences in "user experience".
"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03
"Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" - mYkel - 21 Jun '04
"There's not enough blatant self-congratulatory backslapping in the world today..." - HumblePie - 21 Jun '05
Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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There's also SQL Server 2005 Express, which works like MSDE, and there's a free version of the management tools for it.
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