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The god-complex programmer keeps shining through more and more. He can't address all of the questions without asking ones in an attempt to show that he knows more than an avid VB programmer. He pretends to have real points throughout all of his original messages and later uses the copout phrases like "this is completely unrelated to my point" or "you completely missed the point" to evade the fact that his statements show that he is prejudiced against VB programmers. He's even reluctant to recognize the term 'programmer' in the context of VB. If there's any point at all, that's it and nothing else. VB and VB programmers are below him and he scoffs at them.
My not answering tokenization the god-complex programmer would think is relevant but it is of no consequence. I could avoid it just like he avoided one of his. The term has different meanings in other contexts such as that which is used in the stages of the compiling process. But no matter what the answer is, the god-complex programmer would not be satisfied with either a single sentence or a dissertation. After all, he is god and I'm beneath him.
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Nevertheless it is in the right way...
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The following are thoughts from a VB developer. Or maybe they're cries for help. You tell me:
I asked the same kind of leading question about VB to a local application development company for PDA's (AppForge) when they came to our university to give a speech on embedded systems. Their target market was VB because "it is the most popular programming language used." I didn't understand that because of such message boards as this. After looking through the literature of today's 200+ languages (with over 2500 since Fortran - see them at http://www.levenez.com/lang/) it certainly wasn't the most used by full-time developers. I think it went: C++, Java, Python, (then a large gap), then perl, C, ... , (another gap), then cobol, lisp, VB, pascal, etc. But the word 'popular' is what I was curious about. From what AppForge's market analysis found, it is probably true that VB is the most popular although not the most used.
But seeing the results on this survey so far I'm guessing the majority who are derisive towards VB use C/C++ or Java. Right? So, VB isn't a 'real programming language' and 'it's horrible.' But C/C++ and Java aren't truly object oriented languages! If you're going to be a purist and look down on VB this way then why not use Ada, SmallTalk or Simula? OK. OK. So you use what your company or your curriculum tells you. As for me I've worked on my own in the US for the last 3 years and I use VB. But be easy on me... I am molting. Yes, towards C++. Not because it's the best but because it's the defacto language for the majority of programmers.
My first love was assembly some 18 years ago. I knew exactly what the machine was doing for the graphics routines, leaving out stacks and interrupts. Then came work using Pascal 7 some 12 years ago after which I moved to VB and stayed there. Why? It has everything the applications required and it takes on average about HALF the lines of code compared to C/C++ to accomplish the same task! Or rather, "it's about time," stupid!
The track record? The Pascal 7 applications (equipment control and data recording) written and validated in '94 are still being used to this day with no problems, not even Y2K (so much for the software life cycle). The VB applications (company-wide international label/barcode system with mainframe sync) written between '95 and '97 have the same result. Yes, they have been revised as company SOPs changed but they're still being used, every day, every week, every month, 4 shifts, no problems. No, these are not COTS. Many a company SOP cannot conform to the average COTS. And the business logic layer is too broad to capture what needs to happen with specific end users. How many programmers take the time to find out what the end user really needs? From what I've seen, very little. Thus how I find my work.
VB not good for re-use? Give me a break. All depends on the programmer. I've read too many professional C++ source code files which have no naming conventions or comments at all. You call this maintainability? For VB I find on average better comments (and I don't mean ones lording over the stupid VB programmer about what the program is doing at every line) as well as good use of, say, the Reddick convention.
So, why not Java? Too slow. And the platforms were and still are a constant. And back when Java started it wasn't "write once, run everywhere" but rather "write once, debug everywhere." Like a new car model, wait 3 years for them to get the kinks out. Anyhow, which Java programmer knows all those classes AND uses the most appropriate ones? And worst of all, I wrote a very simple Java program that produced a surprising square root error only to the 10'th decimal place! Come to find out, This is also virtual-machine dependent! Horrible! This takes me back to TRS-80 days when the program had to be written so as to correct these errors. And if I'm to validate a Java application, then I need to control the end-user's virtual machine, which I can't.
Why not C++? Besides not having enough time to write twice as many lines of code and not wanting to forget how to use proper English, spelling and grammar, good question.
- good ideas are copied - great ideas are stolen -
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 Applause 
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If I create an ActiveX control via the CWnd's member function
CreateControl(), I have to specify a rect for the control.
Is there a way for the control to specify a "recommended size"?
That is, if I create an ActiveX control that needs a lot of screen
real estate to display nicely, how do I tell the container how much
real estate to use?
Thanks,
Chris
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VB has been long associated with RAD and i have programmed in VB at times though i did most of my stuff in C++ being a COM programmer (well VB clients are fast and dirty)
I guess with .NET, VB shares a similar thing with C++. Both have a past in which there was no .NET and atleast i in person associate c++ to win32 (cause i cant be asked to behave when writing c++... ) and VB was mainly click click click... 5 lines of code and the client is ready.
I guess most people associate .NET to a great extent with C# cause it was a fresh language with no associations of past. And did share a lot of syntax with java.
Think i got it right...
HD
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I would have picked the top and bottom if I could...
John
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well its changing but yes it used to be very easy to write dirty code. 
Though haven't touch VB.NET yet every time i look at it... reminds me of VB 5/ 6
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My problem with it is that the language is so simple that it allows people who should not be programming to do so and produce very low quality applications...
John
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close. think the model has been implemented across languages.. c# isnt so bad... c++ used to be wicked... so i guess we now have a common model which was inherited from VB and c++ features inherited across languages to an extent.
PS: with 1.2 release we should see overloading implemented in VB
C#'s getting some c++ template equivalent
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That's crazy talk and the very reason people who think like you are loosing their jobs to people like me. I crank out applications in record time compared to the dinosaurs around here and management sees that. My apps work just as good as those other guys and I don't have a single day of programming education. I learned in right after I learned HTML and it was fairly easy.
Technology shold be getting easier and easier or we're doing something wrong. Wouldn't it be cool if everyday people could write programs just like everyday people today do video editing at home?
Wake up people!
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p05esto wrote:
management sees that.
They probably never programmed a line of code in their life and thus don't have a clue...
p05esto wrote:
I don't have a single day of programming education
In my experience a lot of applications written in vb are exactly this written by people who do not know what they are doing and it shows. As a consumer I will not buy any software written in VB because I have never seen a VB application that was not total garbage. In the hospital where I work we have a patient database system that has a VB interface which looks like it was written by a fourth grader. It crashes often and half the features do not work all the time. It was so bad that we have given up on it and are rewriting it in-house.
p05esto wrote:
Wouldn't it be cool if everyday people could write programs just like everyday people today do video editing at home?
NO WAY. Most people can not even set the clock on their VCR when it has menus that guide you through the whole process.
John
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<rant>
VB causes people who have very little or no understanding of programming to write applications. Most pure VB programmers have no clue when it comes to coding for scalability or ease of maintenance. C based languages are much less forgiving than VB, and so with good reason. VB encourages sloppy coding and doesn't promote code reuse.
Why should programming be easy? Would you feel comfortable if your heart surgeon decided that it's easier to use a cute and fuzzy multi colored spoon to take out your heart instead of a sterile scalpel? Right tools for the right job. VB is a prototyping tool for GUI's, not a language for production code.
Just my 10 cents...
modified 30-Aug-22 21:01pm.
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Here here, my thoughts exactly
Regards,
Simon Hughes
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Couldn't agree more, Johann.
What else would you expect from a language that promotes non-programmers to use it?
Nothing like a business analyst moving from the depths of Excel's code editor straight to VB and calling himself a developer.
Cheers,
Simon
sig ::
"Don't try to be like Jackie. There is only one Jackie.... Study computers instead.", Jackie Chan on career choices.
article :: animation mechanics in SVG blog:: brokenkeyboards
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Johann de Swardt wrote:
Would you feel comfortable if your heart surgeon decided that it's easier to use a cute and fuzzy multi colored spoon to take out your heart instead of a sterile scalpel?
 That's a pretty good one.
Happy Programming!
WWW::CodeProject::BNEACETP
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You've tried the best, now try the rest!
But in the end, it's all just database access right? And that stuff is just plain boring.
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Why should programming be easy? Would you feel comfortable if your heart surgeon decided that it's easier to use a cute and fuzzy multi colored spoon to take out your heart instead of a sterile scalpel? Right tools for the right job. VB is a prototyping tool for GUI's, not a language for production code.
Johann. With all due respect, I've never read someone confidently spouting as much crap
as you have in the above. What a piss poor analogy.
Just look at that smooth, clean, not fuzzy !!! precision instrument .... THE SCALPEL.!
Do you really think that your surgeon would opt for a tool that couldn't do the job.
I guess that your the sort of person that would have your dentist brush your teeth with
a scalpel, or your surgeon sow your arm on with a scalpel, Eat your dinner with a scalpel
and fork..... yea.
Horses for courses my friend... and if you can't see that ......
it's because you can't see. 
Without education, you're not going anywhere in this world.
Malcolm X, speech at Militant Labor Forum, NY, 29 May 1964
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Give me a break. Ya know, you guys are pretty full of yourselves. Especially y'all who give the 'Amen', and 'I agree' business.
You're like the guys who insist all carpenters use two-by-fours and 16-penny nails to build a house, and laugh at those using preforms.
If it's not a language for production code, why have I been writing productive code for successful deployments for many years? You know, I should go back to all those installments and give their money back. Shoot, I feel bad now.
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Yes, programming should be easy.
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I have to reply again. VB kicks ass! You other guys will not have a job soon! You need to find better, cheaper and faster ways to do your job or the 25 year olds like me are gonna roll your ass. VB rules..hip hip horrah!
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And then the 17 year olds like me who know C# are gonna "roll your ass".
Quit trolling, go pick up a C++ book or something.
I have also lived some years in Spain, and there people don't accept that you speak bad spanish. I usually compensate by speaking loud and accusing people of being stupid because they don't understand me. It usually works quite well.
-jhaga on non-native languages
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