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I used ClearCase at my first job, and it was a royal pain to setup and start using it. Once we had it properly configured and figured out how to use the config specs, we could do anything we wanted.
I loved the fact that it was tightly integrated into Explorer and DevStudio, making it much easier for me to use. Local snapshots made builds faster, but if you were limited on disk space, you could just build over the network instead.
Bottom line, I wouldn't want to admin it, but I would love to be using it for CM again.
Jason
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Gavin Greig wrote:
SourceSafe doesn't handle Unicode text well, particularly UTF-8
CVSNT[^] can handle Unicode.
Gavin Greig wrote:
but our key objection is its default handling of binary files - there's nothing to stop two (or more) people developing different versions of the same file which then can't be merged.
True, CVS was specifically designed to always allow working as opposed to preventing work (hence "Concurent" in the name). But there are numerous methods to avoid getting in troubles with non-mergable files. With CVSNT the simplest would be to use the reserved edits, which will prevent accidental work on the same version. Combined with email notification for edit's and watches and with the commit notifications which will provide an ongoing information as the file is worked on and commited it makes a pretty good system to avoid problems with non-mergable files.
<center> </center>
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I couldn't agree more. While VSS suits my needs, I have quite a few wants. One of the biggest problems I've had is the whole disconnected case... if I develop on a laptop, then unhook from the network, I cna only work on what I've checked out (granted, I can work on other files, but it's a work around).
I joined in on an open source project to create a new source safe project, taking some key features from VSS, CSVNT, and Subversion. It was also going to include a bug tracking and task management application... all of which would eventually make up a suite of development tools. Unfortunately, the other two developers I was working with lost interest. If anyone would be interested in working on something like this, let me know. I'm game for a pay-product as well as open source.
-AC
-AC
MCDBA
http://www.aconnell.com
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The only good source control programs that I found are SLM and its successor, Source Depot, but both of them are developed and used internally by Microsoft. Nobody uses SourceSafe.
I just wished that Microsoft releases those to external parties. It just has every feature you can imagine and merging capabilities are awesome. Absolute automation and ease--Every checkin is automatically verified and backed out if there is a problem. But then it has to be because it has to handle the Windows source trees which is about a terabyte in size.
Thanks,
Wes
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Where the hell is info on SourceDepot?
I have just been googling for it, and all I see are some hints that it might be by Perforce, and was used to replace the older home grown version control system that the original NT programmers used.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire!
Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)!
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No, CVS is the de facto standard for any company doing serious development work. Try doing multi-platform development with VSS. Or try having Ant run automated builds with VSS. CVS is the best version control out there; it's had a long history; it is open source and it works very well with open source. If your company is using anything other than CVS, you need to convince them to switch over to CVS.
cvs -q commit my/2.cents
Ron
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CVS???
I have worked with it and it's terrible!
What's happen when 300 programmer work on the same application???
Go and merge?
The right way is to use VSS.
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I have used VSS for a number of years, and was initially impressed by its features as it was a great improvement on no version control. I administer VSS for the needs of my colleagues and me and it suffers from several problems:
Corruptions - It corrupts roughly twice or thrice a year which can take several days of analysis to fix (OK I should run the analysis tools more often)
Structure - on our limited size server, it takes up a huge amount of disk space. The structure of the database files are split into hundreds and hundreds of small files that waste space given the large cluster size on our server
Integration - Making it too easy to check out/check in files can result in errors because it can be too easy to accidentally local changes that you have made on your local computer (though it is easy to switch the integration off via the registry). Integration-only projects for Access developers is also a headache for us.
Security - security is terrible. I once needed to hack the administrator password, and found it very easy, once I had looked at the password file. I was pleased then but also shocked.
WAN access - For us it is unusable over the WAN. It causes two much traffic and in consequence causes us real problems.
Apart from these points, it is great! The ability to run it via macros is a real plus. If only all the above comments could be addressed
MA
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Michael Andrew wrote:
(OK I should run the analysis tools more often)
Are you sure of this? OTOH, I think that you should never need to run such a tool 
Michael Andrew wrote:
Apart from these points, it is great!
If you look carefully to what you listed, what you need is a client-server version of SourceSafe. I've tried SourceOffsite, but it's too expensive, and has its limitations too. Now, I'm happy with CVS.
My latest article: GBVB - Converting VB.NET code to C#
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Daniel Turini wrote:
(OK I should run the analysis tools more often)
Are you sure of this? OTOH, I think that you should never need to run such a tool
I absolutely agree. MS should give us a proper database considering the cost of VSS. However MS cop out by stating that "Administrators should run Analyze.exe regularly to verify that no problems exist in their VSS databases"
Thanks for the suggestion. SourceOffsite does look like it could be a solution (and it does have a 30-day evaluation) or perhaps not, considering the comments of others.
One problem that remote programmers face is that the decision-making executives tend to either have 2 megabit connection speeds, or work on-site and so do not experience any speed or connection problems.
MA
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Michael Andrew wrote:
One problem that remote programmers face is that the decision-making executives tend to either have 2 megabit connection speeds, or work on-site and so do not experience any speed or connection problems.
No problem. Go to the firewall machine and drop their connection a couple of times. This will be enough to corrupt everything they are working on that's not client/server.
Alas, this is fun!
Kant wrote:
Actually she replied back to me "You shouldn't fix the bug. You should kill it"
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I'm guessing people have piped up about SourceOffSite but I thought I'd chuck in my tuppence worth.
Found it very good to start with. Much quicker than VSS (I think we used it over a VPN but I'm not 100%!). But later realised there were problems with checking in files - it said it had, but hadnt!
Possibly something to do with the integration with .NET though - I've found that using VSS I cant check things in directly through .NET. I can check out, but have to open the VSS app to check them back in again!
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Its damn slow on VPN.
Anand is here
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I've been using Perforce for a while now and I won't go back to SourceSafe...you can't make me!!! There's a free version if you are only going to be using it with one or two developers. It's awesome, and it has the SCC provider plugin for VS.NET.
Hawaian shirts and shorts work too in Summer.
People assume you're either a complete nut (in which case not a worthy target) or so damn good you don't need to worry about camouflage...
-Anna-Jayne Metcalfe on Paintballing
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At my last job I was the lead on a project the evaluated VSS vs. P4 vs. Clear Case vs. PVCS
By far it seemed that P4 was the most bang for our buck. The build *nazi* loved it and as a developer I found it had the least odd quarks compared to the others. I esp loved the SCC provided for VS.net and it's intergration with MS Office.
Hey don't worry, I can handle it. I took something. I can see things no one else can see. Why are you dressed like that?
- Jack Burton
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Hi,
i'm using SourceSafe too, but i know that there is another solution which supports the SCC Provider as well.
Take a look
.:Greets from Jerry Maguire:.
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I use source safe mainly because of its user interfaces and Visual Studio IDE integration. Less hassle.
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I got a copy of VSS with my enterprize visual studio 6 but I never used it.
John
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I've used source-safe for over 5 years and it has rarely let me down. Most of those times have been in small companies where the teams were never bigger than 5 developers.
I've only ever had the database corrupt on me once and that was probably down to a network fault.
Things I don't like
1. No integration with ActiveDirectory. I like things to have a single logon - but thats just me.
2. Not easy to use over a WAN
3. Easy hackable - want to change the admin password; a quick google will tell you how. (Saved my ass once when I forgot the admin password)
Michael
'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
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It seems like people find SourceSafe OK for small projects, but for anything else, it seems to such. I've never used it, mostly because the admins at places I've worked say it sucks.
Integration with Visual Studio is overrated, IMHO. I don't check in and out files so often that it would really save any time. In fact, I *want* it to be slightly difficult to check out a file... that way if I realize I'm about to check out 5 files, I actually have to think and make sure I'm doing things the right way.
"When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity." - Albert Einstein
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I have used VSS for more than 5 years as well; the first three years involved only small projects with a few developers. Today the project I am using VSS for is so large that we have to maintain seperate databases for the source and documentation. Corruptions are a monthly occurrance, and about once every four months the corruption is so significant that it cannot be repaired and the DB must be restored from a 24-hr backup. Finding and re-committing files that have changed after the last backup is a nightmare when you have around 200 people involved.
I agree with the ActiveDirectory integration; that would make life much easier on the db store administrators.
Here is my VSS wish list:
The ability to append text to the comments of historical file entries.
Cloaking at the File level.
Security delegation
Drag-and-drop moves a file instead of "sharing" (or at least an easier way to break accidental shared links)
Better audit reports
All-in-all, while I have to use VSS at work, it doesn't cut it for my personal on-the-side jobs. I am looking into WinCVS, but I still have writing a custom version-control system *for developers* on my to-code list.
Does anyone have any other version-control applications I should take a look at? Or how about features that you would want to see in new vc app?
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Brandon Haase wrote:
Does anyone have any other version-control applications I should take a look at
Take a look at Suberversion[^] which is supposed to address many of the faults of CVS (yes there are some ), and add a number of really cool features to the mix. Still in development, but looks to be pretty cool when it's done.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire!
Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)!
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Thanks for pointing out Subversion. I love it.
- Brandon
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With 200+ people involved in a heavily commercial environment you might want to look at Rational Clearcase.
It has command line and IDE, there are a few problems here and thee, but 450 of us are all on it across the country and it seems to chug along pretty well.
I am not an Admin of it, so I can't comment on that. As a developer/user, it does everything I need. It can also handle merges pretty well, something I recall SourceSafe pretty much sucked at.
C++/MFC/InstallShield since 1993
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