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I forsee that the it industry will get worse in the West (US, Canada, Europe and Australia) before it gets better. More & more work will be contracted out to IT sweatshops in India, Pakistan, Russia and other 3rd world economies. As it becomes easier for programmers to work from home, so too does geographical location become irrelevent. Skills in the countries mentioned above are comparable if not better than in the US etc. (except perhaps design skills which seem to be poor quality in the 3rd world - I wonder why that is 
Get out fast !
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Ahh, an anonymous posting (quite possibly from Roger). Besides the fact that your post is nothing more than a lame pile of excrement, you don't even have the juevos to log in and post with your real name. I take you about as seriously as I do a passing rain shower. If I wait around long enough, you'll just dry up and blow away.
Be a man and step into the light if you want to try and earn some respect.
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Be a man and step into the light if you want to try and earn some respect.
Geez, John. I was expecting more like "Be a man and step into the cross hairs if you want to try and earn some respect." 
Chris Meech
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Sorry, he didn't incense me enough for me to morph into Rambo today.
I'm still working off my WWP high I think. 
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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I liked my version better.
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Russia?
3rd world?
hmmm
dont let the russians see that post...
despite the anonymity of your post they'll force chris to disclose your IP address and trace your ISP and from them will trace you, and then force you to sleep with anna kournikova's boyfriend
Nish
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I find it funny that 10 of us so far don't really care.
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Yep, just some "blind clickers" 
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You don't care?
You don't care how easy it is to find a job?
I don't hope my memory fail me on this one, but wasn't you looking for a job a few months ago?
If it's hard times for the business, they want to save money, and might not need as much people because they don't sell much.
- Anders
Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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> You don't care?
Nope. Approximately 60% of IT jobs are not related to programming.
> You don't care how easy it is to find a job?
That wasn't the poll question.
> I don't hope my memory fail me on this one, but wasn't you looking for a
> job a few months ago?
I was. I might be again, sooner than I wanted to.
> If it's hard times for the business, they want to save money, and might not
> need as much people because they don't sell much.
If management wasn't so severly over-paid, the prices would come down. When the prices come down, more people can afford the software. We more people buy the software, there is a better reason to write new versions.
Instead of worrying about their own agendas, management should be worried about the products. If the products are of high enough quality, management's agendas (that are righteous) will become self-fulfilling.
Everybody wins.
I'm seriously considering finding another line of work - something that doesn't involve programming, maintaining, or networking computers. The hard part is finding a job like that that pays well.
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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I don't think any poll at all should have an "I don't know" or "I don't care" choice. If you aren't sure... DON'T VOTE!
--Mike--
http://home.inreach.com/mdunn/
This posting is provided "as was" with no warranties, guarantees, lotteries, or any of those little bags of peanuts you get on planes. You assume all risk for crossing the street without holding mommy's hand. © 2001 Mike's Classy Software. Member FDIC. If rash develops, discontinue use.
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I answered "Don't care" after thinking a bit about the alternatives, because I realised it really doesn't matter to me. I do care whether I have a job, and obviously somewhere there is a link between that and the market - but frankly I see no point in trying to second guess what is going to happen. It's not going to affect what I want to do, and if my job were to disappear then I'd look for another.
Whether the market is good or bad isn't likely to make any difference to my intentions, only my chances of success, and I have no (significant) direct influence over it, so why should I care?
Gavin Greig
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At least from what I have seen.
For your core IT people working at companies with a realistic business model, are we really seeing a hit greater that the rest of the population? In my opinion, no.
But, if you happen to be one of those poor suckers who went to work with one of those "e" companies that had business models based on hype and fantasy, sure, you were hit hard. But let's be honest with ourselves, from day one people were warning everyone that those companies were failures waiting to happen. I am just thankful more capital wasn't tied up in those companies thus making the bubble and subsequent burst even bigger than it was.
Also, I also get annoyed when people think that EVERYONE who writes software or works on computers does web sites or is praying that his mail server doesn't abend. For every corporate IT person, how many developers are writing applications for robots, control systems, etc? How many developers are like the Dundas people who write software for other software developers? How many developers did it take to write the software running your local water plant? Who wrote the software for the UPS mail sorting systems?
You wouldn't believe all the different things my software I have written is doing. Sometimes it shocks me. We are counting cows as they pass into the feeder so the feeder gives a specific cow their proper diet. We are monitoring the fire control system on a navy merchant ship. We are painting cars in a Ford plant. We are in the navigational system on a Nimitz aircraft carrier. We pace the production system making cardboard boxes.
My point is that the IT people get all the hype and attention. So when the bubble finally did burst, everyone thought the computer industry was going under. But for every IT person out there, there is an army of grunts out here who write the software that actually keeps this country running.
(waves flag of your choice)
Tim Smith
Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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I reckon things will stay the same for a good few months at least and then start to pickup, but never reach the "heights" (lofty they were!) of before.
IT is simply following the path of every new industry before it. Automobile manufacturers went AWOL when the industry first came about, then many died off or consolidated into the large manufacturers of today. IT simply did it on a grander scale than most industries and so when the bubble burst it was an even farther fall.
Good business sense will always be good business sense. Whether you sell toasters, vibrators, cars, magazines, fast food, cat food or computers.
Once again: We, IT, are not special
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
"The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
"In other words, the developer is dealing with an elephant, the accountant is dealing with a bunny rabbit." by Stan Shannon - 16/10/2001
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Once again: We, IT, are not special
Once again, the hell we are! 
See, we are just begining the revolution associated with computers and information technology. It's like we've got a steam engine so we can push things around a bit, but the best is still ahead of us...
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Most of the IT world isn't special. There a few people who push the envelope and move us forward. The rest of use are just production line people, no different from the guys who put cars together, coding the same stuff year in, year out.
The trouble is that most of us consider ourselves to be superior to those who don't understand computers and can't develop software. We forget though, that all people have different skills. IT is no better than the mechanic who fixes our cars, the accountant who keeps the business cash flowing or the office administrator who makes sure we have enough coffee to keep us going.
The world survived for a long time without computers and would do again.
Michael
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Well, once again, let everybody speak for themself. If you think that you are not special and coding is just like fixing the car - then it's probably true in your case.
I know that my job looks more like building a new car every time, not just fixing it. And building a cars is totally different from fixing those and the hell it's special.
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Fixing a car requires special skills just like developing software. You have to have the knowledge and know how to apply the knowledge. There is no difference apart from most mechanics don't consider themselves better than the rest of the company.
Michael
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This industry is different, because it changes so quickly. Most people don't have the intellectual capacity to deal with this amount of change.
Whole companies rely on IT for their corporate health. This business is probably on of the most important areas of the world economy today. If we were not there, the dark ages would soon return.
Someone in this forum said that we have lived without computers before, and we could again. I don't think so. Our way of life in inexorably linked with computers. Very few essential products now do not contain microchips. Pull a computers out of companies today, and you lose the company.
Therefore, we ARE important. We also have a responsibility to do our jobs well. We must strive to eliminate poor quality, badly written software. We must protect companies who rely on us, employees whose jobs we protect, and shareholders whose lives we enrich. In the same way doctors protect the public, so do we.
Cheers,
Karim.
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You don't seem to grasp the difference. To fix something that is already built is a way simpler than to desing the vehicle. Making a prototypes in the electronic industry (that I am more familiar than a cars) I can tell you that making a prototype of the device takes an enormous effort and creativity and it cost a lot more money. Fixing a ready and working previously product is a way simpler. Same with the cars.
Now, in developemnt almost all the time you have to, well, develop. That means that you have to design and implement the piece or software that never existed. It's on a smaller scale than cars thought, but it is nothing like "fixing", and much more like a designing, creating, testing, and a bit of fixing. Did you see a car service that will for example build and test a new type of lamps or tiers? No, they just use the ready ones from the factory. Tell you what: there is not much factories for the software, most of the time you have to make all the parts by yourself...
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simply put in a sentence,
"IT will be never be the same again"
cheers
kannan
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I reckon things will stay the same for a good few months at least and then start to pickup, but never reach the "heights" (lofty they were!) of before.
Perhaps, but there are fewer and fewer developers each year. How many developers stick with it for more than 10 years? (now there's a poll for ya'). All of a sudden, real developers become Project Managers, Business advisors, Management Consultants, or Team Leaders. Anything, in fact, apart from developers.
Schools are failing our industry, because by the time a student graduates, the technology has moved on. Most of them find something else to do.
The truth is that developers (really experienced ones who've been around the block a few times) are thin on the ground. Those of us who "stick with it" can make a fortune!
Cheers,
Karim.
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Those of us who "stick with it" can make a fortune!
I would say that management make more money than developers. Really good developers get put into the R&D role were they effectively become managers.
Climb the corporate ladder, then you will make a fortune. Stay a 0 and 1 typer (coder) and you find yourself at 50 writing help documents for your legacy apps
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
"The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
"In other words, the developer is dealing with an elephant, the accountant is dealing with a bunny rabbit." by Stan Shannon - 16/10/2001
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