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1. Company decides to use Product A.
2. I've never seen anything like Product A.
3. I need a prototype working in two months.
4. The manual isn't the greatest.
5. The examples are worse.
6. No third party books of any kind.
7. No examples on the web.
8. I pack my bags for training course.
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... to learn something is to do it yourself. Find a good book, visit selected programming sites (like this one) and start typing. It might be a bit slower, but you'll crack it properly.
Training courses are part of the deliberate push to make our profession 'more civilized'. Some other aspects of that proccess include more managerial involvement into your work and more regulation on every level. Overall trend is to put profession of programer right beside any other regulated profession - accountant, marketing people, salesman ... and ultimately lower the salary level. Once you get 'regulated', that's your destiny.
If you don't work in a purely programming company, do you think that your manager really accepts your wages? I don't think so,
Cheers,
Dejan Petrovic,
Melbourne
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Regarding how to learn programming, I did it like you, too. Very successfully, I think.
But since our network here in the office is growing and since I'm responsible for managing it, I feel that you can't learn the same way here: When it goes into great details (like Kerberos, Active Directory and IIS authentification), you really find NO good books or web ressources. You even hardly find good support at all.
Maybe the only way to learn is from someone who has REAL deep knowledge.
--
See me: www.magerquark.de
Want a job? www.zeta-software.de/jobs
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It's true there is a limit to everything, limitation being time, primary goals or even lack of books. But that's the stage someone usually encounters while entering some sort of administrative or managerial level. It's less pronounced for 'pure programming' side.
It may be a good idea, but that person with really deep knowlage probably isn't esspecially keen to teach people. My experience (so far) has been that deep knowlage and teaching abilities are almost never found in the same person.
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Overall trend is to put profession of programer right beside any other regulated profession - accountant, marketing people, salesman ... and ultimately lower the salary level
What planet do you live on, over here in the UK all the above get paid around 2 to 3 times what we lowly developers get.
Or am I in the wrong company ?
Adrian
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Well, it has probably been poor choice of words on my side.
When I mentioned those professions it didn't mean the top people in respective fields, nor the ones with their own private companies. I was talking about people working in my company (market research company which is full of them), those that are really sadly paid here. Our accountants don't get paid more than 50K (Australian dollars), marketing people 10K less. And that's the salary bracket that programmers are being slowly pushed to, esspecially since the IT troubles started.
I don't know if you were in the wrong company, but I might be very much in the wrong country. You wouldn't like to work for 20-25K (pounds), wouldn't you?
Regards,
Dejan Petrovic
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Training courses are part of the deliberate push to make our profession 'more civilized'
Which is exactly what the IT industry needs. IT needs to stop monkeying around and stop thinking it is a priviliged "club" to belong to.
Accountants don't go on zealous wars over the type of ledger book they use. Marketing people are expected to act and look professional as their role requires, they don't complain when the boss bans Megadeath t-shirts from the office. Salesmen don't expect to get their own office or get special perks when they first join a company.
So it must be with developers. We all act like spoilt kids who think that without "me" the company will crumble and fall. We act like our industry is different from all others and is a "higher calling" and so should be treated as such by others.
We are not special, not smarter or more enlightened. We are workers plain and simple, just like Joe in accounts and Jane in HR.
The day we all accept this, start to act more professional and realise we are not special is the day that IT delivers what it has always promised.
If you think I am nuts then just come spend a month with me working with IT contractors. I have never met a bunch of greater prima-donnas. If I did not know better I would except the next IT contractor to demand his own make-up assistant and his own trailer, parked away from the Linux/Windows developers.
Otherwise I agree, doing it is the best way to learn. But that methodology cannot last much longer, it is inefficient and costly.
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
"The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
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We are workers plain and simple, just like Joe in accounts and Jane in HR.
Well, you can speak for youself, but IMHO the developer who is a "plain worker", nine-to-five like Joe and Jane, is most likely a lame developer. It does take a special attitude to be good at this job, it gets to be creative and innovative because the challenges of the development are not trivial. I dare to say that development is a form of art. And artists don't get paid and don't work as plain workers, because a plain working artists is useless and ineffective.
Given that - I will wait for the art "industry" to get "more civilized" first. If that works - I sign in. 
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This is exactly what I am talking about...
I dare to say that development is a form of art
But it is not. Or if it is then so is building a car, handling a merger, balancing the books, managing people, doing the payroll, selling a vacuum cleaner...
Your job is to be a developer, to create programmes which have as their ultimate aim the goal of increasing profit for a company. Just like a marketer must promote a product, to be more profitable. Or an accountant who re-arranges tax structures, to be more profitable. Or a plumber who routes all the toilets along the same pipe, to be more profitable.
Profit, profit, profit, profit. Simple as that. The only reason why the IT world is still in the "privileged" mind-set is because development is still more of an art than a science. Because it is chaotic, unorganised and still relatively new. Because developers are not professional enough. But that does not make it art nor is it beneficial for it to remain this way. Ultimately IT needs to become as clinical and results based as accounting or your average factory.
Carry on being an IT artist at home, on your personal projects. That is wonderful and should be encouraged. But at work, with deadlines, profit-goals and pressure art is not needed. Cold, hard, factual science is.
Given that - I will wait for the art "industry" to get "more civilized" first. If that works - I sign in
George, have you ever heard the term "Suffering for your art?". Well basically to put it mildly most artists are starved, suffering individuals. Very few ever make money from art. Very few can live off of their art. Yes there are rich artists too, but that is because they have business sense. They follow rules and guides and know how to manipulate the public into buying their art. They create art and sell as a science.
but IMHO the developer who is a "plain worker", nine-to-five like Joe and Jane, is most likely a lame developer
No, a developer who cannot get his job done in 9 to 5 is a mismanaged and unprofessional developer. They have not planned and calculated their time properly. If they are given hard deadlines then the company is in trouble. No manager tells an accountant they have to complete a project in three days resulting in the accountant working 8 to 11. Not unless the company is mismanaged.
I will admit there is a difference between some developers and the rest of the working force: Passion for what they do. They like coding and trying new technologies.
But for the IT industry to be reliable and deliver on it's promises we cannot rely on developers being passionate anymore. IT is becoming too mainstream for the demand for passionate developers to be met. Proper training, courses and schooling is needed. Just like an accountant goes to varsity and comes out ready to do his job so does a developer need to go to varsity and come out ready to code, professionally.
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
"The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
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>I will admit there is a difference between some developers and the rest of >the working force: Passion for what they do. They like coding and trying new >technologies.
>But for the IT industry to be reliable and deliver on it's promises we >cannot rely on developers being passionate anymore. IT is becoming too >mainstream for the demand for passionate developers to be met. Proper >training, courses and schooling is needed. Just like an accountant goes to >varsity and comes out ready to do his job so does a developer need to go to >varsity and come out ready to code, professionally.
I like to think I have a passion for creating software. In the past few years though, I have started to find the work mundane and boring. The excitement for working on other peoples projects has gone. I guess there won't be a place for me in your brave new world. Of course, your new world is a lot better for the poor users but for me I guess I've have to find something else to be passionate about.
Michael
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I like to think I have a passion for creating software. In the past few years though, I have started to find the work mundane and boring. The excitement for working on other peoples projects has gone. I guess there won't be a place for me in your brave new world.
It is not my brave new world, nor is it brave, nor is it new. It is our old world of proper business stamped onto the "new", headstrong world of IT. I wish we could continue as a bunch of passionate coders working to 1am on our pet projects. I really do, that is fun stuff. But that cannot continue, not unless we want to "suffer for our art".
Of course, your new world is a lot better for the poor users but for me I guess I've have to find something else to be passionate about.
Be passionate about life. Write a book, pick up a paintbrush, compose a song, travel the world, start a new religion, make the biggest damned cucumber the world has ever seen in your back garden. Study philosophy and create your own, "deconstructist butlerism" maybe Learn about history, love someone...
This may be heresy to say it but I am in IT because it is a great way to make money. Simply put I want to amass enough wealth so that I do not have to hold a job and can pursue my other interests: Literature, photography and travel.
Luckily I actually do enjoy coding and figuring out new technologies, but like you I know that if I am in the same place 5 years from now I will be sick and tired of computers. Even now I go home and avoid anything with a login screen like the plague.
It is just a job to me, a means to an end.
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
"The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
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>It is not my brave new world, nor is it brave, nor is it new. It is our old >world of proper business stamped onto the "new", headstrong world of IT. I >wish we could continue as a bunch of passionate coders working to 1am on our >pet projects. I really do, that is fun stuff. But that cannot continue, not >unless we want to "suffer for our art".
The old world of business always wins out. Look at Hollywood as an example of where the IT Industry is heading. It's been coming for a while, which is why I've switched to contracting - I'm in it for the money now. Of course there is still a bit of passion left but strangely its more in the design/spec side than in the coding.
>Be passionate about life.
Try to be already
>Write a book
On with it - plus the screenplays
>pick up a paintbrush
Do doodles count
>compose a song
Can't be much worse than whats out there now
>travel the world
Think I'll leave that one for a few months. Might get a free trip to the Middle East soon
>start a new religion
do I get my own sucidial followers too ?
>Study philosophy and create your own, "deconstructist butlerism" maybe
Now there is a idea
Michael
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It is just a job to me, a means to an end.
I see and begin to understand. I am so sorry. 
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I see and begin to understand. I am so sorry.
Don't be sorry George. When in my late 20's I am travelling the world, writing the book I have always wanted to and not having to report back to my boss every five minutes I will think "Yes, the job was worth it."
When I can code pet projects and not have other peoples projects and deadlines I won't be sorry.
When I can evangelise IT standards, help Chris with building CP and offer bursaries to passionate and intelligent upcoming coders, then I will not be sorry.
When I can do all the things I want to do in life without worrying about money, I will not be sorry.
My job is just a means to and end. Technology, other developers, the industry and coding apps I want to do is a joy and something I never want to loose.
All I want out of life is: Choice
So George, don't be sorry, be happy that I know what I want, know how I am going to get it and happy in the knowledge that anyone can do it.
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
"The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
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"No, a developer who cannot get his job done in 9 to 5 is a mismanaged and unprofessional developer. They have not planned and calculated their time properly. "
I think the reason many people become programmers is because it is an activity which fully engages the entire brain, both analytically and creatively. I for one have a damned hard time turning that on at 9 and off at 5. I see no reason to confine activities involving creative problem solving to some sort of arbitrary, industrial era, time frame. Its silly.
"War is hell" William Tecumseh Sherman.
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Its silly
So is working 14 hours a day, every day. Many developers end up like this as they are mismanaged or give themselves unrealistic timelines.
I did not mean that we should all start working 9-5. In fact there are very few professions which should stick to this, as you correctly put it, industrial era, time frame.
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
"The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
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But, when I'm in a grove of a given problem, I *like* to do 12-15 hour days. Than take a few days off. I hate it when I'm cruising on an interesting project and am forced to break the work into 8 hour chunks. I find I just get a lot more done when I am allowed to pace myself.
"War is hell" William Tecumseh Sherman.
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Or if it is then so is building a car, handling a merger, balancing the books, managing people, doing the payroll, selling a vacuum cleaner...
Not building the car - designing it - is an art. As is a writing the books, balancing is not. You fail to notice that there is a huge amount of creativity involved into development.
Profit, profit, profit, profit.
Well, I am sorry to hear that you only think in that cathegories. If developemnent will ever get to the stage where profit counts only then I am definately out of that business. There is always a need to experiment, "try and error". In the long run the company that only puts a presure on the profit and is not innovative will die and loose all it's profit. Innovation means that you have to sacrifice certain time and resources for research. If you don't - your competitor will and you will disaapear...
because development is still more of an art than a science
Heh, science is pretty similiar to the art. You can collect a lot of data and work very hard, but if you don't think openly then you have a really small chance to do anything important.
Because it is chaotic, unorganised and still relatively new. Because developers are not professional enough. But that does not make it art nor is it beneficial for it to remain this way. Ultimately IT needs to become as clinical and results based as accounting or your average factory.
Actually it appears that the most efficient systems are balancing on the edge of chaotic and organized state. So is the development - it's got to be organized, but if it is too much organized then it's a dead end. People need to have time to think, not just typing and typing. See, in the world it's the "lazy" people who make most of the progress, the hard workers will only imitate the rutine operations. Artist or scientist will stop and say: wait a minute, maybe I could do it better/faster/different?
Carry on being an IT artist at home, on your personal projects. That is wonderful and should be encouraged. But at work, with deadlines, profit-goals and pressure art is not needed. Cold, hard, factual science is.
From my experience those who are artists at home with their own project are also the best at work. Deadlines, if properly set, are always met. Do it with the style or don't do it at all.
Well basically to put it mildly most artists are starved, suffering individuals. Very few ever make money from art. Very few can live off of their art.
I would not say so. Not everyone artist makes billions, but then again not every developer is a Bill Gates. Life is life, "most" people make an awerage money (which is how you count the awerage after all).
No, a developer who cannot get his job done in 9 to 5 is a mismanaged and unprofessional developer.
You missunderstood me. What I am saying is that you need to have a passion, to love your job and to be a developer all the time, not just at work. People with passion will not only meet dealine, but in then meantime asnwer a few questions in the Lounge, write up an article etc. This site is a good example of what I am talking about.
To code professionally mean to code with passion. Take a passion away and you get a buggy, clumsy and hard to maintan product build with copy-and-paste code that is gettings oit of hand.
What we need is MORE passionate developers who will code proffessionally making the greatest software.
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>>Profit, profit, profit, profit.
>Well, I am sorry to hear that you only think in that cathegories. If >developemnent will ever get to the stage where profit counts only then I am >definately out of that business. There is always a need to experiment, "try >and error". In the long run the company that only puts a presure on the >profit and is not innovative will die and loose all it's profit. Innovation >means that you have to sacrifice certain time and resources for research. If >you don't - your competitor will and you will disaapear...
Out of curiosity, what kind of work are you doing? Everywhere that I've worked recently, the bottom line has always been profit. Developers and software have always suffered because the company wants to get the software out the door. Heck, that's why VB is so popular. It's easier and cheaper to get software out the door.
>What we need is MORE passionate developers who will code professionally making the greatest software.
Sadly, I see fewer and fewer of these kind of developers. They are a dying breed.
Michael
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Out of curiosity, what kind of work are you doing? Everywhere that I've worked recently, the bottom line has always been profit. Developers and software have always suffered because the company wants to get the software out the door. Heck, that's why VB is so popular. It's easier and cheaper to get software out the door.
Well, it's all about the trading, where every second of delay means a tousands of dollars loss. Software must be on time and must work without major glitches. All the systems are duplicated or multiplied so if some machine fail the other picks up. Profit is important, but profit also comes with quality. Quality means that you have to put a heart into your job. Of course management is pushing the deadlines, but they would not want the software to suffer. If something takes a month to develop we get a month and often finish before the deadline. At the same time the research work is going on on the new technologies. And, if you say something like "VB gets software out of the door faster" then you will be out of the door VB is a crap and by this time all the smart companies have learned it the hard way, C++ is the way to go - it offers a speed and quality and with the proper planing it gets things as fast as VB done, it always makes it better and is more easy to maintain and modify.
Sadly, I see fewer and fewer of these kind of developers. They are a dying breed.
Maybe you are not going to the right places 
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Not building the car - designing it - is an art. As is a writing the books, balancing is not. You fail to notice that there is a huge amount of creativity involved into development.
I never said development does not involve creativity. I am a very creative person. But art and creativity are different things. Marketers are very creative people, accountants who find a new and better way of balancing (writing, same difference) the books are creative. The best salesmen are creative.
But they are not artists nor is it art. Neither is a spreadsheet app, a word processor, an HR app, an OS or virtually any computer application.
It is not art.
Well, I am sorry to hear that you only think in that cathegories. If developemnent will ever get to the stage where profit counts only then I am definately out of that business.
George do you honestly think that you work in a company that says "Oh don't worry about profit chaps, no need for profit at all. Hey lets rather make a cool new language which is better than C++, then lets sell it for free". Get real. You need to eat right? You want that shiny sports car, the yacht and the helicopter. You want to be able to send your kids to a good school, buy nice food, clothes and go nice places.
If so then you need to make a profit. To get profit your company needs to make profit.
There is always a need to experiment, "try and error". In the long run the company that only puts a presure on the profit and is not innovative will die and loose all it's profit. Innovation means that you have to sacrifice certain time and resources for research. If you don't - your competitor will and you will disaapear...
Innovative companies ARE the most profitable. Competition boils down to "we made more profit than you". Our entire econonmy runs on it, your life runs on it. Linux can say that it is more morally sound than MS but hell who is putting their kids through a better school? Who is contributing more to charity and good causes? MS.
We have seen what happens to companies though that focus on innovation and dont worry about profit. They are, or were, called Dot-Coms. They died. Their employees had to find new jobs, mariages were broken up, kids had to go to the public school and not the private school. Profit George, profit!
It is a sick world that we live in but I am facing reality. Keep your idealism (if you read my other posts you will see that I am very idealistic) but make sure you don't starve while you fight for your ideals.
Actually it appears that the most efficient systems are balancing on the edge of chaotic and organized state. So is the development - it's got to be organized, but if it is too much organized then it's a dead end
We are not talking chaos theory here George. We are talking business. But I totally agree that an over-organised system is doomed to fail. Chaotic systems are also doomed to fail. We have to walk the balance. There is not much balance in the IT world at the moment.
I would not say so. Not everyone artist makes billions, but then again not every developer is a Bill Gates. Life is life, "most" people make an awerage money (which is how you count the awerage after all)
I will bet my Picasso that on average developers earn far more than artists Developers generally eat at night, artists have to write poetry on the side of the road to buy a 99c McDonalds Happy meal.
From my experience those who are artists at home with their own project are also the best at work. Deadlines, if properly set, are always met. Do it with the style or don't do it at all
Hell yeah! Go big or go home. I firmly believe in that. As I said though developers who work long hours are mismanaged, their deadlines are NOT properly set.
You missunderstood me. What I am saying is that you need to have a passion, to love your job and to be a developer all the time, not just at work. People with passion will not only meet dealine, but in then meantime asnwer a few questions in the Lounge, write up an article etc. This site is a good example of what I am talking about.
People with passion are often the worst at meeting deadlines. The dull, boring, slow plodder next door will always meet his deadlines though. A passionate person often has so much going on they drop a few balls. I do it all the time.
Also if everyone was passionate you would have serious problems. Can you imagine John Simmons, Michael Martin and Christian Grauss all working on the same real-world profit making application? My god the wheels would fall off because each would have their own agenda, their own way and their own stubborn beliefs! If you put me in there I would just add more spin.
Successful companies normally involve a top echelon of passionate visionaries supported by lower echelons of dull plodders. Dull plodders keep the world going around George. Ever watch Fight Club?
To code professionally mean to code with passion. Take a passion away and you get a buggy, clumsy and hard to maintan product build with copy-and-paste code that is gettings oit of hand.
No, you get a buggy clumsy application from bad coders, from bad systems, presured deadlines, bad planning etc. You get good code from cut & paste, it is called Object Orientated development
*wipes my forehead* pheew, George you really know how to make me type! hehe. Thanks for provoking me and being passionate about your beliefs.
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
"The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
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>> But they are not artists nor is it art. Neither is a spreadsheet app,
>> a word processor, an HR app, an OS or virtually any
>> computer application. It is not art.
If you'd say "almost ever there is no art involved", i'd agree.
But lots of really innovative Companies have often really innovative people behind them; of which some are performing their job as if it was art i'd say.
As with science, Einstein, Heisenberg and others did not only "work" ... i guess you could say they were artists of there profession.
To me, a at least a small amount of the work involved in the IT sector is not just working 9am to 5pm but doing more than just work. This bit "more" than just "doing the job", at least from my point of view, is a (can be a) form of art.
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An small injection of new ideas into this dicussion:
First, an interesting book on this subject is "After the Gold Rush" by Steve McConnell, the same guy that wrote "Code Complete" and a generally smart guy.
Secondly, I think that there are a large number of 9 to 5 developers who simply work among the IT ranks as if were "just another job". These people are needed. There is much work to be done in IT nowadays and most of it isn't all that interesting. Many programs need to be written that does mundane reporting and moving data about and other such tasks.
However, I believe that the developers that ARE passionate about their work and try to push things to the edge are the developers that will push the envelope and come up with new and better ways of solving problems. These new and better ways will eventually filter down to the average developer that pounds out the everyday code.
I think that this process is not unique to IT. Think about other professions. Take civil engineering. There are lots of bridges that need building and it takes engineers to create them. These are your "everday" engineers. However, there are some challenges that require not just a new bridge, but a new kind of bridge. These are your passionate engineers that push the envelope and come up with new and better ways of doing things.
An interesting point in this analogy is that both the ordinary and the extraordinary engineers use standardized engineering practices to create their works. Though it is not currently the case (from what I've seen), developers should also use the same management and engineering practices whether or not they are creating state-of-the-art software or more mundane applications.
Chris Cubley
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>Accountants don't go on zealous wars over the type of ledger book they use.
Good point. I think I'll try and get funding for a research project. Of course it'll mean dissecting the brain of an accountant and a Linux user. That'll be fun
>Marketing people are expected to act and look professional as their role >requires, they don't complain when the boss bans Megadeath t-shirts from the >office
So what we wear determines whether we are professional or not. That is what is wrong with the world today. Judged on looks and not on results. Of course, I agree with the acting professionally. Trouble is most developers of the kind you describe have trouble interacting with people which leads to incorrect judgements about them.
>We are workers plain and simple, just like Joe in accounts and Jane in HR.
Drop the plain and simple and I'll agree. We are all workers, we all have our special talents. There is nothing plain and simple about anybody. Except managers of course, I find them to be very simple
>If you think I am nuts then just come spend a month with me working with IT >contractors. I have never met a bunch of greater prima-donnas.
Hey, I'm a contractor No, actually you are right again. I've only just started this contracting lark. Some of the contractors I've worked with in the past have come across as prima-donnas. I think a lot is down to the personality of the people though. If you want to talk prima-donnas, you should meet some of the Sales pukes I've had to work with
>But that methodology cannot last much longer, it is inefficient and costly.
But in an ever changing world, it is probably cheaper to get in and play with a new technology rather than go on lots of expensive training courses. A developer is always learning on the job because the demands of the users / Bill Gates are always increasing.
Michael
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But you see, I'm an outlaw programmer, and will always be an outlaw programmer. I have no wish to be ciivilized or even categorized as such for the sake of some political agenda for the betterment of mankind.
I guess I've gotten to the point that I can't be tamed or held back, the modern-day Frankenstien's Monster, invented by Borland, brought to life by Microsoft, and currently escaped and running amok on the landscape we know as Windows.
To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
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