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Cheap hires also means cheap resource stability.
They would be so easy to be seduced to go elsewhere.
Can't really say "head-hunting" on this, but i left my previous job because i was not paid enough, had no regret since.
If your company is in India, then minimal problem - big resource pool, anywhere else and you got a situation brewing, waiting to implode.
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Formular for Success - Pays your employee the bottom dollar. The best well kept secret of the East (Business men).
Norman Fung
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Remember: "If you pay people peanuts - you get monkeys." I guess if you were to employ an infinite number of monkeys on typewriters you might eventually get a workable software product.
Anyway, enough already! Don't any of you people have code to write?
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Edmund . C . Prakash wrote:
I feel indians are extremely smart and cheap.
Yea, companies in the West actually pay their employee and take decent care of them.
It's a very "lowly" thing to be an employee in the East. People who actually gets paid are the directors. Engineers? Architects? Project Managers? You get to work 80 hours a week for a lowly shameful package to keep your boss Mercede's humming. btw, a hectic schedule in the East is not indicative of your personal success - it's more like "Hey, I'm just a slave." The East didn't win because they invented anything grand. They win because they pay their people cheap and work their employee to the bone. So stop braging about your success in the East and how Indians invented the World and China is the future - you win Cheap! Spare me from all those bragging about paper being invented in China - Internet/nanotech/biotech/shuttle are all invented in the West! Your R&D are more like Repeat&Duplicate than Research and Development.
Norman Fung
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Not to mention China has quite the reputation of violating copyright laws. Alot of companies will not sell into/outsource into China because they're notorious for taking products, copying them (and I mean copying - bugs and all), and selling them cheaper (since there was no R&D budget necessary).
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They are copying nonetheless, and many companies are outsourcing (this one I disagree with ya). Just annoys me so many brags about their success as iron proof of how smart/efficient Chinese/Indians are. The fact is, they cheap the world into submission. Their businesses make money by beating up employee paying them shittiest money and working them the longest hours (just like we beat up vendors demanding top services for peanut money). People should learn they need to pay for services and products they consume. Pay up!
Norman Fung
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I detect some excessive hostility towards Chinese/Indians in your post. As a "Certified Mercenary", you probably think the whole world should pay you whatever you demand, but the fact is there exist people who are willing to do the same or better quality work for less. It is a capitalist world in case you don't know.
Norman Fung wrote:
Just annoys me so many brags about their success as iron proof of how smart/efficient Chinese/Indians are. The fact is, they cheap the world into submission.
The Chinese/Indians do provide quality products for the money they are getting, you don't see a lot companies outsourcing to Middle East or Africa or Mexico, do you?
IMHO, you are angry because the Chinese/Indians beat you at your own game.
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That's some nice stereotyping you've got there. I suppose your accountants are all Jews and your mathematicians are all Chinese, too. Are all your janitors Mexicans? All your spoiled, wealthy executives must be white.
Come on. Race is no basis for hiring, and race is no indication of competence in any field.
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Indian? Can they be 'untoucheable', or whatever you call the lower casts? Or is your company like the rest of the 'enlightned' in india that still keep that casts crap?
What about Gypsies? Their Indian too, do you hire them?
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I had to stay in the company for one week and work on a project. How well I implemenented that project determined if I got the job, or not (I did). The project I worked on was even subsequently used in the comapany's product.
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did they pay you for your week?
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No, but I couldn't really care less, as long as I got the job;)
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A week's a long time to work for free. There's no way I'd work for a week without some pay. Sounds too much like a scheme to get free work done. I doubt it's terribly legal, too.
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Curi0us_George wrote:
week's a long time to work for free. There's no way I'd work for a week without some pay. Sounds too much like a scheme to get free work done. I doubt it's terribly legal, too.
When u r asked to work for a few day's time, it normally means that they are satisfied with you. Its a confirmation and your ability to trust on yourself to say that I can do... Its also a kind of personal assesment.
If you are sure about yourself, say YES and give it a try 
I was born intelligent
Education ruined me!.
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Without pay? That's doesn't seem like they have a whole lot of trust in you at all. If they are truly satisfied with your performance in the interview(s), a few days pay shouldn't be a terrible price to determine your future viability as an employee. If nothing else, expecting someone to work without pay is just bad etiquette.
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Curi0us_George wrote:
Without pay?
Actually I was said that I would be paid at the end of a week (if they dont opt me) or.. will be paid at the end of the month if selected 
Curi0us_George wrote:
expecting someone to work without pay is just bad etiquette
Thats horrible
I was born intelligent
Education ruined me!.
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End of the week is fine. But working without pay at all is just messed up.
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Same here... I too got it  !!!
I was born intelligent
Education ruined me!.
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I can't believe that's the most popular choice! I've been unemployed for some time now, the typical person who interviews me doesn't have a clue as to what to ask me. I'm back out on the street before I realize they haven't asked me any real questions. I'm learning that I need to force feed them, because all they're going to ask me is "What kinds of projects did you do in C++". He who lies best gets the gig.
Come up with a test, make them write some code. You'll be able to evaluate the guy who was here last week vs. today objectivly.
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Anonymous wrote:
Come up with a test, make them write some code.
I couldn't agree with you more. That's what we do (in a professional and non-threatening manner) at our company. We don't use a formal test, but we do ask specific programming questions that help us better judge the candidate's knowledge. Interestingly, all the good developers we speak to seem to enjoy the interview.
/ravi
My new year's resolution: 2048 x 1536
Home | Articles | Freeware | Music
ravib@ravib.com
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There really needs to be an option for "Hiring? We don't hire people anymore"
Aside from that.. we did several interviews with candidates, both technical ("tricky" questions) as well as what they did at their previous company. We also took them out to lunch with most of the group they would be working with (3-4 people), to see how they got along with everyone on a personal level. We even got evil a couple of times.... we'd have the first interviewer show them around and tell them things about what we make - then have the last interviewer ask them questions about our product to see what they remember.
Suprisingly enough.. the best success I've had with an interview question is to ask them to implement the insert function for a linked list. The good engineers will stop, think about it for a second, and write out a quick design (or at least speak it out loud), being sure to note the error cases (inserting at the end, inserting into an empty list). You'd be suprised how many people with "5 years C/C++ experience" simply COULD NOT do this. We think it's because it's so simple. Interviewing pressures people, and there's an unspoken feeling that it's such a simple question they need to look like they can do it without any thought involved.
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If you think that is a good test, your a fool! What is the capital of Iran? How do you change a tire? Your question is as good as my 2 previous questions. What if the poor fellow doesnt even know what a linked list is? He may know how to do it, but as he has learned to code by himself, he doesnt know that, what you call a "linked list", is for him a "F%&& pain in the a$$ list". You look like my programming teacher from my first year in college. Also, you're looking for a guy that creates a solutions in a timespace of days/weeks. He doesnt have to know it all in the tip of his thongue!
If you want to know if he is a good engineer, you'll have to ask him about things not connected to programming.
Btw, i dont believe that, in general, programmers are engineers. I havent met a single guy that had a degree in computer programming who was a real engineer.
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>> What if the poor fellow doesnt even know what a linked list is?
Then he doesn't get the job, because he isn't qualified for the job. If a candidate doesn't know basic data structures, then he (or she) needs to go learn. But not on the company's nickel.
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u missed the point. he may know what it is...
Ill give u an example:
I had a friend of mine who was a great programmer and he learned it by himself. He mastered all the basic structures, bla bla bla but he didnt knew some of their names. For example, instead of knowing what an 'array' is, he knew what a 'vector' is. So, if you ask a guy to perform some kind of operation on an 'array', he wouldnt know for a start what an array is, as he knows it as a 'vector'.
Remember that English is not the first language for most of the world, so sometimes people dont get the ideia cause they dont understand the basic mean of the word. For example, it took me a while to realize what the name 'thread' meant (it has no relevant translation to my native tongue), although i perfectly knew how to use it. If it was called 'dog', it wouldnt make a difference to me, as i knew what it was for, and, because of my poor english, i would'nt try to associate it with a meaning right away.
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I don't believe it's possible to be fully versed in data structures and not know the term array, especially if one already knows the term vector.
I'm not saying companies shouldn't make some allowances for non-native English speakers, but that's overboard. In case you haven't noticed, all major programming languages use English class names. The name of the Thread class doesn't change if you program in Spanish or Italian. (I might could see the confusion with the word "array", since it's rarely used explicitly in code, but not linked list.)
With very minimal proding, it should be possible to get any semi-skilled programmer to explain the workings of a linked list. Otherwise, I must again say that he or she is not skilled enough. Anyone who has done any sizable amount of work will know the basic ADTs.
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