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The Altair came out in 1975 - it was my first and I both loved and hated it, though I have to admit that I liked the 6800 instruction set better than the 8080's. Those were the days, writing the OS in binary and entering it with toggle switches, all the while praying the power didn't fail. Then writing an assembler and designing the interface to an ASR-33 so it could be used for something other than a curiosity. I wish I still had that bugger - it would be a treat to show it to kids today! 
Heard in Bullhead City - "You haven't lost your girl -
you've just lost your turn..." [sigh] So true...
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I know of programmers that went to school with me that started with the "easy" job.
They had a decent salary but a stupid job. (Tech support to help upper management
do simple things, like print or format a disk).
Those have eventually lost their job and found that they no longer had any maketable skills.
Ditto for some experienced programmers with Pascal or Cobol. The technology becomes obsolete,
they loose their job and disapear.
I figure I am lucky for having C++ as a primary language for a long time. I have considered
Delphi and Java a few years back (just for fun, in my own time) but just didn't feel like
"regressing" to a lower level of evolution.
Now I contemplate using dot net and c# in the next 6 months or so.
I am busy, in the mean time, with several C++ projects.
I have survived![Rose | [Rose]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif)
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I never considered technology that important in determining a programmer's capabilities. I have always looked for people who can solve problems, not massage problems into someone's framework. More often than not, my engineers can come up with a solution in any given language, and never use half of the APIs that are available, coz they just simply aren't needed.
Additionally, I find a lot these weenies with certifications who couldn't solve a real programming problem. I'd rather hire engineers, not technology book worms or folks who can memorize the sample tests to get a cert.
Any engineer I have I could ask him to develop something in .NET, even if he had never seen it before, and he could get it done and in a timely manner.
Companies like Microsoft have created these mammoth frameworks which allow you to solve incredibly complex problems. They've created certifications to bleed $$$ out of people who are victims of idiot HR people who wouldn't know what a real programmer was. Just look for the buzz words. Yea, that's a real programmer there, he can write COM/DCOM/COM+, ASP, .NET, C++, VBScript, OLE, SQL, etc. on his resume. That person must be a god. Give me a break. But, it’s the only way to get through the door of idiot HR people. Lie like hell on your resume and BS the interview by memorizing some more big buzz words to overwhelm them.
I don’t fall for that at my company. I give them a real programming test. Totally language agnostic. Interviewee can decide what language or even pseudo code. In addition, testing that they understand concepts more than technology is important. Like do they understand what function pointers are, or how about even driven programming, or do they understand basic bit shifting and Boolean arithmetic operations. You might be surprised how many people miss this stuff.
In the end most problems are relatively simple and only require simple solutions. Why use a sledge hammer on a thumb tack?
I got a degree in Computer Science, but the best programmers I ever worked with never finished school. And with real world experience, they turn out to be as disciplined as any educated programmer I've worked with.
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Where are you based?
With that kind of attitude, it's a shame it's probably not in my neighbourhood.
Unlike you, I didn't get a degree in CS (or anything else), for various reasons, including financial. I'd like to think that doesn't make me any worse.
An old friend of mine (I answered 15+, since it's around 20 years) has a CS degree from a UK University, but is probably the worst developer I know. However, it isn't all bad. I got paid a nice chunk of money once to fix something he'd written. If I'd still been with the company, I'd have made sure that QA/testing wouldn't have let it out of the door, though.
Steve S
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you are soooo sooo wrong 
You really have to be the worst programmer within a project or a team who really does not understand any problem, takes about 40 or 50 time as long to develop some simple code, just hang out at the coffee stand all day....and you'll be promoted to be the manager of the complete team and can tell all smart excellent builders what to do while you hang out at the coffee machine or just go home at 16.30 to the wife and kids while the smart excellent but-shifting developer is there until 23:00 solving some very difficult thing.
Ofcourse you earn more than four times their salary after a while....
 ;P
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I am so wrong? On which point or all points? I can only speak from experience. If there is something specific that you disagree with, please point it out for me so that we can continue the discussion. Please be specific as the where my points are flawed.
Technology is ever changing. If you spend all your time being the "expert" at one particular thing, by the time you reach that level, you are already obsolete. It is better to have good general programming and problem solving skills, and utilize the technology as needed. The ability to write down the entire ANSI/ISO specification for C++ isn't very useful.
Any GOOD programmer / engineer can pick up the new technology and be productive with it very quickly. If you do a long term cost analysis on the productivity of programmers, you will find that the more seasoned programmers generally save the company money. Don't misunderstand me though. I do recognize there is always an initial cost in time and money to overcome the learning curve of a new technology. But experienced developers tend to learn that technology at a more accelerated rate. Furthermore, you can not replace the experience of the seasoned programmer over night. 10 years of experience takes 10 years to achieve. Learning ".NET" (enough to be productive) can be done in a matter of weeks.
For example, my company contracted a bunch of hot shot programmers from overseas. Really smart guys, but not a lot of experience. They knew a lot about certain technologies, but in the end, our local developers ended up re-writing 60% of the code because the programmers did a poor job (inefficient and buggy).
Tons of code was written to do a simple thing. My team reduced the code footprint by 50-80% in individual modules and reduced most of the bugs. Funny thing is, 2 of these developers had about 6 months experience in the particular technology, yet proved to be more efficient than the "certified" experts.
Again, this all assumes that the programmers were good to begin with. A crappy programmer today is probably a crappy programmer tomorrow. In the end I think experience is the most valuable, over certs, over education. Sure education has some value (very little for me as my CS degree hasn't really contributed much to my overall skill and success).
Cheers,
That crazy dude.;P
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Couldn't have said it better myself 
Phil Harding
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To clarify my initial point. Selecting the "right" technology is a small part of the
survival skills.
Often I have heard some programmer refer to the silver bullet. They used something
like Delphi and tought they could do anything in the world. Then I started interfacing
with their programs through a database and behold: the framework he was using lacked
the flexibility needed to do what I had in mind. At the time, we had a 64 bit field that
I choose to represent as a 16 digit hexadecimal string.
Poor guy. His framework was never ready for that. As a result, I had to change my stuff to
compensate for his poor development platform. It took me 30 minutes, including the automatic conversion from one field type to the other.
I just want to warn younger developpers out there that there is no such thing as a silver bullet. Something that will do the work for you and allow you to stop thinking and just paint controls on a screen. It may be convenient to speed things up, but there is usually more to programming than placing a bunch of controls on a form.
Don't get me wrong. I have used a precursor of Delphi. Paradox 4.5. It was the right tool for the job at the time (over 10 years ago). It got me a nice summmer job and I got that company out of the stoneage of paperwork.
That was in the old days where the most likely alternative was DOS based application, using some DBASE clone, Codebase. 6 months later, I started working on just that, Codebase with C++. At the time, Borland C++ was hot and spicy. When that compiler fell out of favor, after their miserable attempt of getting back on the battlefield with borland 5.0, I dropped that for MSVC 5.0.
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His frame work was not ready? Did you bother to tell him ahead of time or did he just not ask or something? Part of good engineering practice is having a specification. That would seem to be an obvious detail that would need to be communicated.
As for your warning, I would agree. The problem is you have to understand your problem (sorry couldn't resist.) You might find that on problem is best solved in Delphi, while another in .NET, and who knows, you might even find one best done in COBOL.
As an engineer, you have to define your problem, collect information about that problem, look at your technology options and what they offer you, before you make a decision. The fact is, as engineers we have to keep our options open.
I've been a die-hard C++ developer for 12 years. But if you asked me to write a LEGACY ActiveX libarary to use ADO to do some database connectivity, queries, etc, I would probably do it in Visual Basic. Now that the world of .NET is here, it certainly has improved a lot of things. But it is not the end all. It's only the beginning. Eventlually it will be succeeded by something bigger and/or greater (not necessarily always greater.)
My goal is to know and understand it well enough that I can be productive. With my reference material in hand, I am always ready to take on the next challenge. Coz, if I spend $$$ and time on trying to be the GURU or a .NET god, .NET will have fallen from grace to some other hot technology.
Borland really shot themselves in the foot after Borland C++ 3.1. Their CEO was a fool. Then there was that change of the name to Inprise. What the heck was that about? However, to their credit, I have used Borland C++ Builder 6 on quite a few projects, and it is my C++ development environment of choice. Other than that, I resort to .NET for the other stuff. Except HTML, coz Microsoft's auto-formatting of style in VS.NET 2003 SUCKS!!!
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Yes. I believe the "engineer" is a sub-species of homo sapiens; and responsible for the success of humans. The others are politicians and parasites. If we were all beautiful, we would rule the world... Sigh. 
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I was working as developer by near to 10 years, Now I am a kind of software architect, manager, chef, etc.
But I was working with Ataris, Texas, Commodores, in High School only to learn.
Carlos Antollini
Do you know piFive[^] ?
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Since this survey is filled in by a self selected group of people who read CodeProject the results are somewhat interesting...
What does it say? Not many people have been working less than two years and use CodeProject. Then a sudden burst of activity between the 2-5 year mark and then it tails off until it gets to the 15+ year category.
So, what does this mean? That just after 2 years commercial service a light clicks on that says - hey I really need to learn some new technology otherwise I'm going to be left behind.
What d'y'all think?
[Edit]
For reference the results at the time I wrote this were:
more than 15 years: 63 16.20%
11 - 15 years 46 11.83%
6 - 10 years 93 23.91%
2 - 5 years 135 34.70%
1 - 2 years 23 5.91%
less than 1 year 10 2.57%
I don't work as a developer 19 4.88%
[/Edit]
EuroCPian Spring 2004 Get Together[^]
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar
"Get in touch with your Inner Capitalist - I wish you much success!" -- Christopher Duncan, Lounge 9-Feb-2004
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No, I think that most developers worldwide actually belong to the 2-5 year category.
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or maybe there should've been more categories. there's a HUGE difference between a 2y/o "programmer", and a 5 y/o Software Developer... no, it's not just the dipper size.
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Maybe you've not met many developers  During the time I've been a developer I've found that they fall into 2 groups; those that dabble in it for a few years and then move on into management (and so on and so on) and career developers, who one day will drop dead at the keyboard after a lifetime perfecting their craft
Phil Harding
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You aren't thinking about anyone in particular, are you, Phil?
Steve S
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Nah, just a few crusty old geezers I've met !
Phil Harding
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That puts me out of the picture then, as I'm not crusty...
Steve S
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I'd have to add 1 more category. That being the ones who drop out of it just before they drop dead at the keyboard.
Sometimes I think I want to drop it, but I can't seem to tear myself away from it. I tell myself that I will go out and start up some other type of business. I've played with the idea of a restaurant, bar, bakery, photography studio, music studio. All kinds of stuff. But somehow, I always end up in front of the computer churning out line after line of code.
I guess I am in it for life.
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Interestingly enough, your initial trend seems to have continued. I think it's interesting to sort of invert the survey, and view it as a measure of interest in or usage of Code Project, broken down by age.
The largest audience is in the 2-5 year range. My theory: These folks have been around long enough to know that college didn't teach them everything. They know enough to look around and see if anyone else has solved the problem they're interested in.
There's an interesting dip in the trend for the 11-15 year range, indicating lower interest at that experience level. One possibility is this is the age at which folks switch from an engineering track to a management one, if they're going to do so. For those who stay in engineering, this is possibly the period when they've settled in to a 'comfort zone' in their expertise, and don't feel they need outside help.
The more than 15 years group (mine ) shows the interest level moving back up. In my case, I use Code Project to help me keep track of current trends and The Next Big Thing. In other words, what are those damn kids up to now...
Software Zen: delete this;
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YOu make some interesting points. One more you might consider. Now, I do not have statistics to back this up, but based on what I have seen I have another theory which might explain what seems to be less interest in engineering for the 11-15. That being that it is very often that Engineers move into another phase of their personal lives.
That being getting married and having children. May engineers are so busy being engineers, that there is little time for the highly active social life. I found myself in that same sort of rut at one time. Then I did a crazy thing. I took up bartending at night for the fun of it. What a change that was for me. Engineer by day, bartender by night. Slowly this thing called a social life krept in, and about the same time I hit my 10 year anniversary as an engineer, I was married.
Interesting enough, move of my friends were doing the same or having kids. I saw a huge change in my own life and my friends, and suddenly, engineering was more of just a job and not a passion. Life took me over, as it did many of my friends.
Anyway, thought I would throw taht in the mix. Funny thing is, now that I have been married for over 2 years, I find myself more stable and actually drumming up new enthusiasm for the work I do.
I don't know if I am ready to switch to the full-time management track. I'm content in a lead development position.
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I think that's what I was originally getting at. In my case, the events that changed the priorities in my life were threefold. First was the birth of my daughter when I was thirty. This had a profound effect on my emotional landscape, readjusting the level of importance of a lot of things. All of a sudden, there was this small person that depended on me for everything.
The second was my smoking. From college throughout my twenties I had let my body take care of itself. I smoked a pack of cigarettes a day, and didn't watch what I ate. I had a smoker's hack, I felt like crap most of the time, and my gut looked like I was the one who was pregnant. When we found out my wife was pregnant, we agreed to quit smoking. I quit, cold turkey, on January 1, 1991. I haven't had a cigarette since.
The third event was acquiring a new friend who got me into running and lifting weights. About the time my daughter was two, I was having problems with lower back pain, probably from stress. I was walking a lot during lunchtime, which seemed to help. One day when I was changing in the locker room, one of the guys said I should go running with them. 'Said' is too mild a word; he positively nagged. I went running with them. At the end, I was convinced I was going to die. After I had been running a few months, the same guy 'casually' mentioned he needed a workout partner at the gym. Ten years later, I've run two marathons, two half-marathons, and countless shorter races. I ride a 350 mile bicycle tour every other year or so. I've still got a bit of a gut, but it's surrounded by muscle, rather than the pale, sunken chest and stick arms I had before.
The combination of these things have given me a perspective. Programming is what I do for a living, and occasionally do for fun, but it's no longer the whole focus of my life. I don't have the temperament for the management arena. I'm content to stay at the top of the technical track.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Congratulations! I you have probably added years to your life, as well as increased the quality of it. As my wife is pregnant now, I am doing the exact same types of thinking. Fortunately, I don't smoke or drink, but I need to shed lbs as I also have elevated blood pressure.
One of the serious side effects of sitting in front of a computer all the time, no exercise. I am 33 now and find myself realize that I need to make a change.
Your words are inspiring, and I am glad to read your comments. (Man, this sounds like a subject on Oprah). I hope I can make such changes in my life to improve the quality of it. There is a rich world out there beyond the computer screen, and time on this planet is fixed. MAke the most of it.
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I think the same thing could be said about the "old-timers" who responded "more than 15 years".
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
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Started with a Vic-20, 10k expansion module, tape drive, and a 1541 floppy (interchangeable with the C-64) at the age of 10. Didn't get seriouse until 12. Learned alot by picking apart other peoples code, including my fathers...
Caught on to Oop and away we go... (with my first IBM compatible - 8086)
1 company... Hopefully this doesn't change (don't wish to relocate)
Sign says 'Store your *treasures* here!'
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