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we sometimes end up selling things that haven't been written yet...
I thought Enron is closed!![Rose | [Rose]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif)
Your boss must be good, really good.
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Well, it's not exactly what it may sound like. We sell directly to the clients, and perform the installs ourselves by taking scheduled trips to the client site. Since there is a built-in delay there, he "can" sell the extra feature (or whatever) and then make us programmers put it together before they install it (the next week). Sometimes it actually ends up working, but I am totally convinced that it's never a good idea. (Particularly, because there is always a few bugs in a new piece of software that has been written in a couple days and never even thought of before then.)
John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek.
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Ah, the Beauty of Vaporware.
This can be a powerful marketing strategy. If you sell first and code up only what sells, you avoid coding products that never generate revenue. Too often companies code up a product and then go out and see if anybody wants it.
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A company I worked for once sold some hardware that I did not even know existed yet. And guess what? There was no (PC) software to run it. Why? How can I write software for some thing I didn't know about.
INTP
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That's not too bad, then. My boss has just sold a system to 50 customers that I haven't even written the first line of code for. (Mainly because he keeps telling me to do other things first, as they have "priority").
I estimate the system will take about 3 months to build (and we all know us programmers tend to be overly optimistic about development times).
It's due to be implemented January 5th. My vacation started today and lasts until January 4th. Hmmm... do you see a problem somewhere? My boss sure doesn't...
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John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek.
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The best PM I ever worked for had a ton of programming experience. He knew what problems we, the programmers, faced daily. And he never once put any kind of unrealistic pressure on any of us. Whenever sales and marketing came along, he happily sat down with them and was the perfect shield for us. He always had a plan for anything that came up. One of the saddest days of my working life was when I left that group, because I've never worked for such a boss ever again. Thanks Duane, where ever you are right now. 
Chris Meech
It's much easier to get rich telling people what they want to hear. Chistopher Duncan
I can't help getting older, but I refuse to grow up. Roger Wright
I've been meaning to change my sig. Thanks! Alvaro Mendez
We're more like a hobbiest in a Home Depot drooling at all the shiny power tools, rather than a craftsman that makes the chair to an exacting level of comfort by measuring the customer's butt. Marc Clifton
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I Agree with you, I had bosses with a lot of experience and others with zero experience, And I prefer the firsts one.
At this moment I am the boss and I enjoy when the people listen and learnt to me.
But I saw other kind of boss the person Who believes to Know a lot but he knows nothing.....
I hate that kind of people....
Carlos Antollini
Do you know piFive[^] ?
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I had a bad experience with my last company. My immediate boss was network technician that was responsible for the IT department. Problem was he was overpaid and under skilled and he knew it.
I used to get briefs that consisted of 10 lines on a piece of paper. constant 'impossible features' and deadlines that speedy gonzalis on speed couldn't do.
The final breaker was that I was told to add a 'feature' to a databse application I was writing. They were editing an address list against adressing software and they wanted any un-edited data to be left as is, not cleared. I sent memo's, emails and documents saying this will corrupt the data, but no-one listened and I was forced to add it.
After 3 months they realised the data was screwed and guess who got the blame. ME. All the emails and digital memos had mysteriously disapeared, the documents had been 'misplaced'.
I had the forethought to keep an audit trail with markers that told me what had been changed and exported a 90% correct version, but they didn't believe me and redid the data by hand.
My boss sh*$ted me to cover his own butt! I left the industry after this and have not gone back. I still code for myself and have written a few apps for people but I do it as a hobby now.
One day the industry will learn that good software takes time to produce and employ managers who actually understand the software development process. Until then programmers will be forced to produce sub standard work due to unrealistic time scales, bad specs and people promising the impossible.
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FruitBatInShades wrote:
My boss sh*$ted me to cover his own butt! I left the industry after this and have not gone back
Hey man, I feel ur pain.
But U shouldn't have quit the industry.
I once had a similar experince like Urs, I left the firm for another one. Today, I'm happier
What would life be without programmers and salesmen?
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Or spell checkers......ur..U...Urs....do we really need to propagate this stupidity?
Can't you type? Can't you spell? I'm the Chief Architect for a very successful company, but when I see messages or resume's like this, I just throw it away. Kindof like "Can't write a message or email, probably can't code worth a crap". Just a heads up to you young pups.
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DeeWorld wrote:
Can't you type? Can't you spell?
Sorry old man;P I was just tryin 2 help. Typing any other thing apart from codes can be boring at times.
DeeWorld wrote:
I'm the Chief Architect for a very successful company
I'm happy 2 know u're still in the Industry somehow. We still need guys like u around. Goodluck!
What would life be without programmers and salesmen?
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You quitted the industry? So what do you do for living now?
Florin Crisan
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Strangely enough I'm disabled now and training to become a counsellor. I used to work over up to 100 hours a week and ended up getting C.F.S (M.E)
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I wonder why. 
"if you vote me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" - Michael P. Butler.
Support Bone
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Anonymous wrote:
anonymouses
Shouldn't that be anonymice?
Software Zen: delete this;
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Years ago I used to work with two bosses who had no programming exerience. They were both directors of the company I worked for and neither was the technical director. The Technical director actually knew what he was doing, but was frequently overridden by the CEO and, indirectly, by the Sales Director who used to carp to the CEO constantly.
As a technical lead on one project the CEO asked how a certain feature was going. I replied that it wasn't due until the next release as the development plan had been signed off already. He should have known that. Perhaps he already did. But, he insisted that it be put in for the current release, which was due to go for beta in two weeks. I tried to point out that the initial "optimistic" estimate was at least three months worth of work, but he continued to insist that it go in the current release. So, patiently I tried to explain that the only way to do that was to put back the current release by at least three months. That was not acceptable as the Sales Director had promised a potential customer a beta to evaluate with that feature by the end of the month (two and a half weeks away) and that I had better work out a way to get the feature in or else.
In hindsight I wished that I had had the gaul to tell him to f*%$ himself because at the following board meeting [Edit] Information removed for legal reasons [/Edit]. You can't imagine the relief that he was gone. Unfortunately, guess who replaced the CEO. Yes... It was the Sales Director.
I now work for a great company where all the managers I've worked with have been developers or at least engineers and understand the issues. I don't feel stressed about my work any more because I don't have to defend myself against gross mismanagment exceeding dilbertesque proportions.
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How I know the feeling....
How about having a manager asking you for a project timeline, then dropping out two weeks of testing (both system and user-acceptance) because "it's a waste of time and there will be errors in any case..."?!
As it turned out, I brought the matter up with higher management, bargained for one week of testing instead of two, and no errors slipped through whatsoever...
Can't imagine the wiiiiide smile I had on me face....extended from one ear to the other...
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Exactly the same here, except to a worse extent. I work for a very small financial IT company where the sales director IS the managing director. No knowledge of programming whatsoever.
Tasked with created a system for a client I was asked to come up with the initial work breakdown schedule. I created with x weeks for Analysis/interviews, y weeks of design etc etc. The project was scheduled to take in the region of 18 months. The schedule was signed off and work was begun on the analysis phase until, one week later the MD came in and said that the project had to be prototyped and shown to a large client in two weeks. We explained that even a prototype at this early stage was rediculous but never got our way.
It eventually went down the road that the prototype was a good start and we were to continue developing it directly in conjunction with the client. There was no further design and no further analysis. We're now about 6 months in to the project making it up as we go, and boy do I feel like I'm paying for that decision. Frustrating is the best word for it as the client likes to keep changing their spec etc.
Sigh. 
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I agree that it is easier to deal with superiors who are technical. However, from what you write, it seems that these people didn't trust what you are saying at all.
One of the largest reasons why working with technical supervisors is easier is that they tend to use their own knowledge to judge whether you are telling the truth or just covering your a$$. Where as most non-technical people assume that developers are always exaggerating, so therefore they tend to dismiss most of what is said.
So, ultimately I believe that the issue comes down to trust. So, whether they understand the details or not, if they trust your estimates then there should not be an issue. For example, say you need to have your car fixed and the mechanic says it will take 6 hours of work plus parts (which is going to be a hefty amount) ... do you trust his estimate or do you think he is full of $hit.
Although I do trust the people who work for me, I still use my knowledge of software development to ensure that the timelines given to me sound reasonable. So (this is where technical abilities really count) if they do sound incorrect I can then at least have a reasonable conversation to figure out why.
... however this is just a basic summary of how I look at this, so if you want my full rant on the subject just ask 
Troy Marchand
VP Softare Development
Dundas Software Ltd.
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However, from what you write, it seems that these people didn't trust what you are saying at all.
That sounds reasonable. They, the CEO and Sales Director, could never figure out software timescales. THEY would tell US (the development team) that feature X should take, say, 3 months and feature Y should take, say, 2 weeks. In fact they were often the other way round. They were not very mathematical so when they tried to esimate the time anything mathematical was very pessemistic everything else (i.e. anything thay was easy for a human to do) was overly optimistic. However, if they had listened to the Technical Director then things might have run more smoothly and less stressfully.
If there was any reason for compensating my estimates due to lack of trust they should have been increasing mine because at that time I was usually overly optimistic by a third (I would estimate 3 months and it would actually take 4) rather than taking my estimate of 3 months and collapsing it to two weeks.
Anyway, don't let me stand in the way of a good rant. It's good to get it off your chest.
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You really shouldn't blame lack of technical ability for poor management skills. Even a skilled programmer could have made that call.
Managing a project or staff is not a technical issue, guiding or mentoring staff is. This is a regularly confused issue by more technical managers.
I often find better managers are exactly that, professional managers, not programmers that have risen through through the ranks over a period of time. Obviously you have found someone who is a good manager to work under now, wouldn't be so quick to atribute it to his technical ability.
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The project manager that is in charge at the moment has lots of experience programming, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is good at managing projects. Unfortunately, some people just aren't cut out for this type of work and only want the job because it pays more and makes them feel important.
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