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Standards for a global world 7-Oct-01 7:32 7-Oct-01 7:32  Imagine if every one of us speaks a same languaje but giving to the words different meanings, nobody would undertand many things or other would understand erroneously; or the worst...one would feel offended because the same word would mean an insult meanwhile for others it means a praise. With internet, the global world is present, all the connected world deserves respect from the innovators. By the way...the best innovation in software now is to optimize coding, why hardware is smaller every time and the software is bigger and bigger every time, where are the intelligent innovators that should avoid this? Innovation should not destroy standardization because it is dangerous, we loose control of things. Re: Standards for a global world Paul Watson7-Oct-01 13:19 Paul Watson 7-Oct-01 13:19  Hardware is smaller because people demand it. In that same process the hardware manufacturers produce systems capable of running bigger software, storing larger files and have cycles to spare. In the old days I remember hardware was doing the catch up. But I agree, most software is bloody bloated. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes IE6 and Java 5-Oct-01 5:32 5-Oct-01 5:32  Why did I vote #1? We all know M$ dumped Java for their own selfish reasons. Now I get emails every day from irate visitors asking why there is a "gray box" on my page where my Java eCommerce component should be. How do I tell them to send a complaint to M$? I don't, I just apologize and tell them we're working on an SSL replacement. Thanks for nothing Microsoft. You hurt me where it hurts... the hip pocket, the check book. I say bring on the standards and remove the ability for companies to screw me over whenever they don't like something someone else is doing. Re: IE6 and Java Paul Watson6-Oct-01 3:03 Paul Watson 6-Oct-01 3:03  While I am not saying MS had no bad part in this whole IE6/Java debacle I do have to say that Sun was a major contributor and to be blunt a bunch of fanatical idiots. In short Sun have been screwing MS over Java for years. MS has always been very restricted with the use of Java. Bottom line was that Sun did not want MS to have any Java capability in Windows. But MS has perservered and struggled under Sun with Java. Now with XP they saw a chance to get out of the Java world, something you would think Sun would be all for. But no, Sun, the back stabbing lunatics, turned about face and are now screaming at MS for NOT inlcuding Java. That is a pretty phuked up position if you ask me. So dont just blame MS as usual. But I do agree about the standards! I vote PRO STANDARDS. p.s. Any website I have ever used which had Java applets in I have stopped using. They are buggy, unreliable, take ages to download, are unusable and anything you can do in them you can do in normal DHTML. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes Re: IE6 and Java 6-Oct-01 4:38 6-Oct-01 4:38  Paul, MS has pulled the wool so far over your eyes, you've gone blind boet. SUN wanted (and still wants) Java on Windows. What makes you think otherwise? What they didn't want was Windows-only extensions which would mean that a Java program written on Windows with those extensions would no longer be portable... the whole reason for Java in the first place! Now that we've got that out of the way, lets consider IE6 and Java. MS ripped Java out of IE6 - why? There was no principle, there was no logic, there was not even an enquiry about what it would do to companies like mine. They did it to hamstring SUN, considerations for their customers come a poor second. XP pricing is simply more proof (if you needed any). Ask Chris Maunder what the internal slogan inside Microsoft was for this year gone by. He'll (possibly) be able to confirm it was "SUN Down". That tells you all you need to know. They want SUN out, gone, down. I return to my primary point. They had zero regard for my business. Given your comments about Java applets let me bore you and explain why we used it. With SSL I can get 128 bit encryption. With the Java applet I have (had in IE6) over 1,000 bit encryption - quite a good reason I would say as it results in increased sales because users feel safer. And FWIW the applet was stable as a rock.;P Re: IE6 and Java Paul Watson7-Oct-01 13:16 Paul Watson 7-Oct-01 13:16  Fair enough but I still stand fast that Sun have not exactly been a shining example of fair play in recent years. Anyways, this debate has been killed on ZDNet already by people far more knowlegable than I. You from South Africa by any chance? The use of "boet" is a good bet p.s. I support MS because they produce damned good software. I always say that if you can give a better alternative to, lets say IE, and from a fairer company then I will use it. Businesses want results and teaming with the underdogs, while nice and chummy, is a bad move. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes Standards vs. Innovation Paul Watson1-Oct-01 5:28 Paul Watson 1-Oct-01 5:28  I put to you: Our current level of innovation across most areas of computing I reckon is at a very workable and satisfactory level. Our level of standards however is not. Real world businesses could not give a Flying Phuket that there super fabulistic Wizzamoogo interface shell does not work on Netscape but works fine on IE. They don't want to know the excuses. To them, bottom line, it must work. Now with proper standards, enforced and enforced again, we would not have the super-phuket problems that face web developers. Sure maybe I would not have the BLINK tag or I would still be using an animated gif instead of a Flash file but all I want, and am sure every business want, is something that works, works well and works as itended. That does not require work arounds, fixes and "alternate features". Innovation basically IMESHO needs to slow down so that the standards can actually be authoratively called standards and not "working drafts". * a small bird found only on the island of Phuket which acts differently to the same situation depending on the time of day regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes Re: Standards vs. Innovation David Wulff1-Oct-01 7:42 David Wulff 1-Oct-01 7:42  Very well said. I think. * a small bird found only on the island of Phuket which acts differently to the same situation depending on the time of day Chris was right - we really do have too much free time! -= =- David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com Re: Standards vs. Innovation Chris Meech1-Oct-01 10:37 Chris Meech 1-Oct-01 10:37  LOL Is the tool tip of "Hi my name's bob" an example of the standards? Or lack of them? Chris Re: Standards vs. Innovation Paul Watson2-Oct-01 1:32 Paul Watson 2-Oct-01 1:32  Very well said. I think. thanks, err I think. I will send you the National Geographic video of the bird in question doing its mating dance. It took me ten hours to download but it was worth it... regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes Flying Phuket David Wulff4-Oct-01 16:02 David Wulff 4-Oct-01 16:02  Well? I am still waiting for the video! Flying Phukets'.... What will you guys think of next? -= =- David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com Break existing code? CodeGuy1-Oct-01 2:03 CodeGuy 1-Oct-01 2:03  I'm sure there are cases that could be cited for this, but I still picked #1 because standards should prevent breaking of existing code. I believe the most important thing here is to be able to pick up a book on a standard language, type code in and have it work as written in the standard. Our jobs are hard enough without trying to figure out compiler errors just because someone didn't think it was important to comply with a standard. Innovation can come in time as new libraries are *proven* to be useful and that they work like they should. CodeGuy The WTL newsgroup: 940 members and growing ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wtl Re: Break existing code? Chris Maunder1-Oct-01 3:20 Chris Maunder 1-Oct-01 3:20  Ah - but what happens if the standard changes? Having a standard doesn't imply backwards compatibility. cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject) Re: Break existing code? CodeGuy1-Oct-01 3:42 CodeGuy 1-Oct-01 3:42  Hi Chris - You're right of course -- I just believe that having a standard normally _should_ imply backwards compatibility. Most of the time, if certain functions/keywords in a language are changing, then they could be deprecated to give people enough lead time to adjust. My belief is that a standards process keeps designers from making changes without considering the consequences -- from the peer review alone, if nothing else. CodeGuy The WTL newsgroup: 940 members and growing ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wtl Standards... Tim Smith1-Oct-01 1:49 Tim Smith 1-Oct-01 1:49  It really all depends on what the standard is for. Interoperability standards are VERY VERY important. Compiler standards can be unimportant to VERY important depending on the company/application. In the case of operating systems, version consistency is usually much more important than standards. But like compilers, if you are doing multi-platform developing, standards do tend to be of higher importance. [EDIT] One big problem with standards is the politics involved. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc. What's in a standard? peterchen30-Sep-01 21:48 peterchen 30-Sep-01 21:48  Standard compliance is worth only as much as the standard itself. web designers: they don't struggle over the "my browser is more compliant than yours", but about a standard that allows the same page to be rendered rather differently. STL: Hell of a standard library, but it was too late to be universally accepted as base for many important other libraries. And IMO, I sometimes have to adjust my "everydays needs" to the library.. thoughts?

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