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You are both right and wrong -> The timescale plays an important role here.
There will be a very long phase where the cars will be at AD level 2.5 to 3, e.g. only on some specific roads and the driver must be able to take over within seconds. AD will be a standard on highways in the coming 10 years, but that's it. The step to level 4 needs an established level 3, where almost all vehicles are connected AD vehicles. Then, level 4 can be rolled out, and only after we will jump to level 5.
AD in all situation is extremely complex and requires lots of SW (there are already about 100 millions of LOC in SW of an average recent vehicle, this is 10 times what is required to fly a plane, and this is WITHOUT AD).
During this time, people will accept that AD will not solve all crashes, and that they are using a machine that can fail. You sign term and conditions when you drive with the AD function, it is your decision and therefore will remain your responsibility, and it will clearly be put in disclaimers. If AD dies, it would only be because no driver would want to endorse responsibility of the system, but not because people will claim against OEM - at least, not more than today.
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Rage wrote: and the driver must be able to take over within second
That is not 'self driving' then.
Someone who is typing on a computer, while balancing a super sized soda in the crook of their arm, is not going to be doing anything "within seconds".
Look to one of the other posts that suggests the driver can sleep in the car.
What you are referring to is enhanced safety controls on the car.
Rage wrote: You sign term and conditions when you drive with the AD function, it is your decision and therefore will remain your responsibility,
That is not how it works in the US.
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EV's are a given. The fact they're all electronic and "connected" means that over time, the driver will be dumbed down to the point we do have "self driving", and you can sleep in your car (the actual goal).
At some point, you won't be able to go above a certain speed. No crossing double lines. The trafic system will slow you down before the light changes. If you go "off the grid", without a permit, your car won't. Etc.
We're talking years; but it will come.
"Before entering on an understanding, I have meditated for a long time, and have foreseen what might happen. It is not genius which reveals to me suddenly, secretly, what I have to say or to do in a circumstance unexpected by other people; it is reflection, it is meditation." - Napoleon I
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Speed limiters have been a legal requirement in all new cars sold in Europe since July 2022 - and it's only a matter of time before it is illegal to disable them (they default to on when the car is started, but can be disabled by the driver). I don't doubt that they will become a part of annual compulsory vehicle testing (MOT in the UK) once the first such vehicles become old enough to need testing.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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OriginalGriff wrote: Speed limiters have been a legal requirement in all new cars sold in Europe since July 2022
No it isn't.
In July 2022 they signed the 2019/2144 regulation that goes into effect July this year.
And there is no limiter (well not yet anyway). There will be a requirement for all new cars to warn you if you're speeding though.
And the warning/notification should be designed to be easily dismissed or ignored. According to the law, the audible and haptic warnings must be "as short as possible in duration to avoid potential annoyance of the driver."
I read some preparatory work for the regulation a few years ago and a limiter was considered to be out of the question.
Reason being: Assume you're overtaking a slower vehicle and that vehicle suddenly accelerates to the speed limit while you're overtaking, you would end up driving side by side with you being in the wrong lane.
In short, speed limiters would be quite dangerous used wrongly, which they would be.
Well, let's see how long they have that opinion, speed limiters are already in effect for lorries since many years...
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Anyone who has read a shrink wrapped license should have an inkling of how this is going to go down.
My prediction:
Car is provided with autonomous driving capability, but it's not enabled by default.
User reads the license (!) and accepts it. License of course places all of the risk back on the owner who agrees.
By accepting this license <blah blah=""> Neither car yard nor the device manufacturer or installer, gives any other express warranties, guarantees, or conditions regarding autonomous driving. <manufacturer> and installer exclude all implied warranties and conditions, including those of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose. If your local law does not allow the exclusion of implied warranties, then any implied warranties, guarantees, or conditions last only during the term of the limited warranty and are limited as much as your local law allows. <blah blah="">
Final point - car manufacturer identifies the driver/occupant by breaching your privacy and using sensors in the car (weight, seat adjustment etc) or a profile to identify the person who is "in control" of the vehicle.
PS: Elon Musk is not silly. His autonomous driving already takes this approach. Driver must be ready to take control etc. That it's totally impractical is irrelevant. It's all about blame.
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pmauriks wrote: His autonomous driving already takes this approach. Driver must be ready to take control etc.
There is a recall already in effect for Tesla which further restricts the very limited self driving that the car does have. Because that feature has been implicated in several accidents.
The reported fix not only intends to insure that the driver is actively involved (which by definition really means it is not self driving) but failure to be actively involved over time can lead to the car locking that feature out for the driver.
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I think it's targeted wrong in terms of spending too much effort on local city driving. The infrastructure of most cities and towns isn't conducive to AVs. Using a controlled vehicle in an uncontrolled environment is difficult and requires myriad sensors and strong AI analysis and controls. Cruising down a highway where all the vehicles are operating in concert in a controlled space, sure why not?
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Quote: So in the above with a self driving care no person can be at fault. Because they were not driving.
I think this is maybe true, but still a big assumption and all of that just hasn't been sorted out yet (liabilities).
There were autonomous "R/C" aircraft 25 years ago. Yeah really.
The "R/C" is and is not a misnomer. Some of them, maybe even most, you could "take over" just like a Tesla/autopilot sort of works.
Not so strange we'd nail it down in the air first. There's less pedestrians to hit up there.
But liabilities? They always fell on the flier/owner. It didn't matter they didn't write or create the control software or if they'd built their whole setup from a single off-the-shelf kit or some kind of "kit bashing" or what.
I hear where you seem to be going is that there's a sort of DDoS attack using liability lawsuits that suddenly inundates the creators with financial obligations.
Just because you can sue, and probably would, if you lost someone close to you in an accident maybe? That definitely doesn't mean anyone is going to be found at fault and owing anything at all. "Stuff" does happen and people grok that.
Also though, there's a flip side to this whole coin and that's how many of these such accidents do not even happen at all anymore because automated systems start kicking humans' butts at "paying attention" and "not being screwed up behind the wheel" or "trying to text". (They may be already... devil in the details sort of question)
In short, self-driving is not going to die at all.
We're already at a point with tech and affordability/accessibility that anyone can DIY this stuff "easily". Where "easily" is talking about the barrier to entry, especially if we concede that doing it on the scale of a little R/C car is really almost as relevant sensor/software/tech wise and bits of doing such a thing can near directly translate over to "real cars".
So what I see is not really FOSS, per se, just the fact that tons of hobbyists can and will make contributions here in the form of "crowd sourced" ingenuity that finds its way back in the hands of "the big guys" (corps like Tesla).
Now talking Tesla specifically in all this context? Maybe it does effectively "get killed" for them because Elon is just too reckless about many many things. But for the world/country? Nah.
modified 12-Jan-24 15:35pm.
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I'd argue that this is not about 'crypto'. this is really no different from other fraudulent companies, hedge funds or startups. There is more fraudulent 'low hanging fruit' because there are more uneducated people putting their money in. But honestly the amount of money being scammed in crypto is dwarfed by the amount of fraud committed by legit companies. If you watch the big short, you get an explanation of how the 2008 banking crisis was caused by those respectable banks and investment companies. A couple of Billion in crypto scams doesn't even register on that radar.
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I've been burning the candle at both ends fighting PyTorch, everything NVIDIA, Python, and my own short attention span (squirrel!). In updating the dashboard for CodeProject.AI I've been refactoring a bunch of truly ugly code and as these things go, you pull on a thread and you just...keep...pulling. After two consecutive nights of dreaming about the code I realised I probably should unplug for a day. Right after I fix just one more thing...
So am I a little odd or does this happen to you guys occasionally? Or am I just lucky to be working on something that grabs me like this?
cheers
Chris Maunder
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I started at 5 this morning. I'll log off in a couple of hours (it's currently 4PM in the UK). So yes, I get the obsession.
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I think it goes with the territory.
I have to admit these days I do get bored with the run of the mill stuff, but it's generally the run of the mill stuff that pays my bills.
Something new and exciting comes along however, good luck in getting me out of my seat!!!!
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Yes, the just one more thing before I walk away and give it a break...8 hours later!
As the aircraft designer said, "Simplicate and add lightness".
PartsBin an Electronics Part Organizer - Release Version 1.3.0 JaxCoder.com
Latest Article: SimpleWizardUpdate
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Ah, I dream of those glorious days...
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Sometimes.
Especially when refactoring code.
But I often dig myself in a hole and revert everything back to original code.
CI/CD = Continuous Impediment/Continuous Despair
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I used to be. These days, just opening the IDE and loading the project feels like a productive day.
"A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants"
Chuckles the clown
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But at least I got through all of the email and slack messages though!
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I also fall victim to the "It'll only take me thirty minutes ..." 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Chris Maunder wrote: So am I a little odd or does this happen to you guys occasionally?
When you're in the zone, time just fades away.
Jeremy Falcon
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Yeah. It's an awesome feeling
cheers
Chris Maunder
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It gets worse than that. Are you to the point where you can "see" the code behind an application while using it? At least how you would have written it.
Talk about being unable to unplug...
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Yes. Everytime I use a broken website.
It makes me scream
cheers
Chris Maunder
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