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jschell27-Dec-23 6:21

27-Dec-23 6:21

To be fair though the charges are not a language.

Although, far as I know, all modern processors use 'micro-code'. Googling does not really answer if that is Turing Complete though.

Daniel Pfeffer27-Dec-23 6:55

27-Dec-23 6:55

If you can build a Turing machine out of arrangements of electron charges (which you obviously can), then I would claim that it meets my definition of computer language.

We don't usually think of that as a language, but it is no more arbitrary than using certain shapes to represent letters is.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.

honey the codewitch27-Dec-23 7:03

honey the codewitch

27-Dec-23 7:03

Real programmers use butterflies.

*hides*

Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix

Daniel Pfeffer27-Dec-23 7:30

27-Dec-23 7:30

Obligatory xkcd: Real Programmers

Real programmers use emacs!

(Dons asbestos suit, runs and hides)

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.

jschell28-Dec-23 5:30

28-Dec-23 5:30

Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
If you can build a Turing machine out of arrangements of electron charges (which you obviously can)

And computers are built using atoms but I am not going to claim that atoms are computers.

Jerry Manweiler28-Dec-23 5:06

Jerry Manweiler

28-Dec-23 5:06

I could also argue with you that C is the only other real language when used as originally defined back in the (what was it) 70's!

On a serious note (at least for me), anything that is not a strongly typed language suffers from a serious flaw in its ability to do the job intended (as opposed to written!)

Actually, I have changed my mind, even assembly isn't a REAL programming language.
The only REAL programming language is the string of 0's and 1's (or bits) that the CPU consumes on its way to World Dominance!

All Hail the AI Overlords!

PIEBALDconsult27-Dec-23 6:06

PIEBALDconsult

27-Dec-23 6:06

Among other things, such as Turing-completeness and datatypes... with a "real" programming language, you can implement it's compiler/assembler. By this requirement, no interpreted language is a "real" programming language.

But there are definitely uses for other programming languages, domain-specific languages in particular. And Operating System scripting languages.
Is JavaScript a domain-specific language? I don't know, I never use it, but it seems like it might be.

In my opinion, the question comes down to do we really need programming languages which are neither "real" nor "domain-specific" nor "Operating System Specific"? E.g. "portable scripting (glue) languages" such as Perl and Python.

Gimli: Very handy in a tight spot, these lads

jschell27-Dec-23 6:36

27-Dec-23 6:36

PIEBALDconsult wrote:
with a "real" programming language, you can implement it's compiler/assembler

Interesting definition.

So for that it would exclude C#, Java, JavaScript.
But would include C/C++, Fortran and Pascal.

Focusing on C# and Java they can create a binary file. It is after all just a matter of writing to a file.
So they can for example create their own interpreter. Perhaps as a hack, but they can do it.
They can definitely create their own compiled (byte code) files. There are actually libraries in both languages for that.

So creation, to a certain extent, is not it.

So it is a two step process that makes it not fit the definition?

Isn't C/C++ 'built' using a compiler and then a linker? Although those can be one application the process of each is distinct. And I have certainly used systems where they were distinct applications.

Additionally I can find both a Microsoft and gcc linker right now. So they still exist however they might be used.

So there are still two steps.

I was also wondering where Lisp fits into the above. Definitely a compiled language. But no way would I want to create a compiler using that.

honey the codewitch27-Dec-23 7:02

honey the codewitch

27-Dec-23 7:02

jschell wrote:
Definitely a compiled language. But no way would I want to create a compiler using that.

Where's your sense of adventure? You mean you don't want to have to maintain 247 level nested parentheses 6 months after you put the code down?

Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix

jschell28-Dec-23 4:57

28-Dec-23 4:57

honey the codewitch wrote:
247 level nested parentheses 6 months

lol...I think you are underestimating the needs of a writing a compiler at least by an order of magnitude.

PIEBALDconsult27-Dec-23 7:31

PIEBALDconsult

27-Dec-23 7:31

jschell wrote:
exclude C#, Java, JavaScript.

Essentially correct. Can the Java VM or C# runtime (and .net framework) be implemented those languages? I doubt it.

Yet, as to C# and Java, I'm not sure that they are excluded by definition. Certainly their reference implementations rely on Virtual Machines and runtimes, but I'm not ready to say that their core functionality require those. I reserve the notion that maybe someone could use one or the other to implement a proper compiler which supports some core functionality of the language without needing the full VM/runtime -- such would probably not be able to inter-operate with "normal" applications. I don't know Java, but C#'s core functionality/syntax shouldn't need it.

As to C++, I'm not even sure about that. Or, for the most part, any object-oriented language. I think D is implemented in D.

jschell wrote:
it is a two step process

jschell wrote:
C/C++ 'built' using a compiler and then a linker

jschell wrote:
there are still two steps.

I see a statement on another site [ "C++ implementation" means the compiler plus linker plus standard libraries ] and I would respond, "no, forget about any reference implementation and 'standard libraries', look only at the core of the syntax, what is the minimum you require to implement that? Without having to link to the library and such, you don't need a linker. Consider how the first version of the C compiler and library must have been compiled prior to the libraries having been compiled. I know, not very useful, but that's not the point.

Consider only the syntax of the language itself, and not any of the baggage you have come to expect to go with it. Surely someone can (has the ability to) take the language syntax and implement a whole new eco-system which does not require the VM or runtime or 'standard libraries' or whatever. Not that I could implement such a thing myself. Codewitch could probably knock one out in a week.

The linker and pre-compiled assemblies are just nice-to-haves.

jschell wrote:
Definitely a compiled language

Just being a compiled language isn't enough.

I would further assert that basically no programming language is inherently "compiled" or "interpreted", though BASIC is the only one I can think of quickly which has had successful implementations of both types.
C# and Java "compile" to some intermediate form which runs on a VM/runtime, so are they truly compiled or just interpreted? Probably the latter.

Daniel Pfeffer27-Dec-23 7:44

27-Dec-23 7:44

PIEBALDconsult wrote:
C# and Java "compile" to some intermediate form which runs on a VM/runtime, so are they truly compiled or just interpreted? Probably the latter.

There is no technical reason why one could not build hardware which has the Java bytecode as its machine language. Ditto for C#. Therefore, neither language is inherently interpreted.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.

PIEBALDconsult27-Dec-23 8:10

PIEBALDconsult

27-Dec-23 8:10

I agree. The reference implementations seem to be interpreted from a certain point of view, but a truly compiled implementation could (conceivably) be created.

jschell28-Dec-23 5:15

28-Dec-23 5:15

Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
There is no technical reason why

There is a commercial reason though because when they tried that long ago with Pascal it failed.

Daniel Pfeffer28-Dec-23 9:17

28-Dec-23 9:17

I'm aware of that. We were having a technical discussion, not discussing the commercial viability of such an implementation.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.

trønderen28-Dec-23 6:52

28-Dec-23 6:52

Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
There is no technical reason why one could not build hardware which has the Java bytecode as its machine language. Ditto for C#.

If you with C# mean to refer to dotNET Intermediate Language (IL), you are comparing two languages at approximately the same abstraction level, but very different in form.

Java bytecode, like lots of other P-code formats (strongly inspired by the P4 code of the original ETH Pascal compiler) are intended to be complete, ready for execution, with no loose ends (except for those defined by the language to be, e.g. late binding), similar to 'real' binary machine code - but for a virtual machine. The instructions (i.e. bytecodes) are executed one by one, independent of each other.

IL, on the other hand, has a lot of loose ends that must be tied up before execution. It contains lots of metadata that are not the machine instructions, but indicates how instructions should be generated. Although you in principle could try to 'interpret' the IL, you would have to construct fairly large runtime data structures to know how to generate the interpretation, similar to those structures built by the jitter to compile the IL to machine code. So you are really doing the full compilation, except that you are sending binary instructions to the execution unit rather than to the executable image.

The line between compilaton (followed by execution) and interpretation is fuzzy.

If you with C# refer to direct source code interpretation, you have a huge task to solve. Here, you would have to build a lot more complex runtime data structures to support the interpreter. Building these would be going a long way to making a full parse tree of the source code, and then you have done a significant part of the compilation job.

Compilers are so fast nowadays that I see no practical advantages in interpreting program code.

For building dedicated hardware:

USCD Pascal, one of the better known Pascal interpreters for PCs, used the P4 bytecode. It also ran on the PDP-11, such as the single-chip LSI-11. For this was written microcode to run P4 directly (rather than PDP-11 instruction set). It turned out to be significantly slower than running the PDP-11 software interpreter.

There are lots of similar stories of hardware implementations not living up to expectations. Intel's object oriented CPU, the 432, was simulated on an 8086. The first 432 implementation turned out to be slower than the simulator.

Yet another example: I worked on a 'supermini' (i.e. VAX class) machine that provided instructions for trigonometric functions. The Fortran compiler/libraries didn't use them; they were too slow. Calculating the functions the traditional way turned out to be faster. I talked to the designers of the CPU, asking why the instructions couldn't do it the same way as the libraries. They just mumbled a lot about having to be prepared for interrupts in the middle of the instruction. But the library sequence of instructions can be interrupted midway, right? Well, that is a different situation ... In other words, I never got a decent answer.

Religious freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make five.

Daniel Pfeffer28-Dec-23 9:15

28-Dec-23 9:15

trønderen wrote:
IL, on the other hand, has a lot of loose ends that must be tied up before execution. It contains lots of metadata that are not the machine instructions, but indicates how instructions should be generated. Although you in principle could try to 'interpret' the IL, you would have to construct fairly large runtime data structures to know how to generate the interpretation, similar to those structures built by the jitter to compile the IL to machine code. So you are really doing the full compilation, except that you are sending binary instructions to the execution unit rather than to the executable image.

I sit corrected. Smile | :)

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.

jschell29-Dec-23 6:17

29-Dec-23 6:17

trønderen wrote:
I worked on a 'supermini' (i.e. VAX class) ... asking why the instructions couldn't do it the same way

That is an interesting story.

MSBassSinger28-Dec-23 4:21

MSBassSinger

28-Dec-23 4:21

Quote:
Can the Java VM or C# runtime (and .net framework) be implemented those languages? I doubt it.

C# supports .NET native compilation (since VS 2015), so you can compile C# in Visual Studio to machine code. Someone more proficient in Java could answer whether Java can be compiled to machine language.

Also, C# is always run compiled to machine language. C# compiles to Microsoft Intermediate Language (MSIL), and the .NET VM then performs its "Just in Time", or JIT, to machine language when it is run, based on the specific environment in which it is run. The Java VM does something similar, so both do produce machine language differently and more efficiently than an interpreter would.

jschell28-Dec-23 5:16

28-Dec-23 5:16

MSBassSinger wrote:
so you can compile C# in Visual Studio to machine code

How does it link?

MSBassSinger wrote:
Also, C# is always run compiled to machine language. C# compiles to Microsoft Intermediate Language (MSIL)

Java does the same.

That however is not really applicable to this discussion.

jschell28-Dec-23 5:14

28-Dec-23 5:14

PIEBALDconsult wrote:
be implemented those languages? ... look only at the core of the syntax,

Then I believe my answer would be yes.

The standard java compiler is written entirely in Java. It emits class files. Programmatically it could emit assembler.

Not sure how C# does it but pretty sure process is doable.

I don't know the details of JavaScript enough to know what is included. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible.

PIEBALDconsult wrote:
though BASIC is the only one I can think of quickly which has had successful implementations of both types.

I believe I remember seeing a C interpreter long ago. Before a lot of the new stuff was added.

PIEBALDconsult wrote:
so are they truly compiled or just interpreted?

Now days I suspect the distinction is meaningless. Certainly doesn't mean much to me because I know how compilers work and because they all emit something, the something is not as important in terms of a discussion like this.

Looking it up apparently Lisp in 1952 was an interpreter.

PIEBALDconsult wrote:
though BASIC is the only one I

That might be a distinction, since often with BASIC, one didn't 'compile' it but rather just 'ran' it. It compiled and then ran all at one go. So there never was a binary type file. However I know that internally it was still distinct processes (compile, emitted code, then run the emitted code.)

Perl is the same.

I had the misfortune to work on a system which did NOT compile the language to any intermediate form. This was when I first learned how languages should work. In that system it would run lines by parsing them. So a for loop would reparse the for line every time the loop executed.

trønderen27-Dec-23 8:14

27-Dec-23 8:14

Turing completeness: Geek&Poke: Spoilsports[^]

Religious freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make five.

trønderen27-Dec-23 6:59

27-Dec-23 6:59

I'd say that C++ is not a real programming language - it is a complex programming language.

Religious freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make five.

honey the codewitch27-Dec-23 7:00

honey the codewitch

27-Dec-23 7:00

Don't get me started on imaginary languages. Unsure | :~

Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix

trønderen28-Dec-23 6:54