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That was a good re-entrance! 
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Amused me too!  Welcome back.
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Welcome, Paul. Sleep away, friend.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Ho, Ho, Ho.
Happy whatever you celebrate.
>64
There is never enough time to do it right, but there is enough time to do it over.
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Welcome back, and it's very good to see you!
Will Rogers never met me.
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It's good to see you back!
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Sidetracking - you trailer:
Wouldn't real freedom be to say that two plus two make five? That would include a lot of religious freedom as well!
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You are assuming that there is no objective reality, and that therefore reality is whatever the Powers That Be claim that it is.
You may recall that in George Orwell's Nineteen Hundred and Eighty Four, Winston Smith worked in the Ministry of Truth, whose only reason for existence was to "correct" data so that it appeared that the Party was always right.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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I am suggesting that a fair share of those who demand absolute religious freedom are demanding the freedom of irrationality. Two plus two make five is an explicit statement of irrationalism.
Winston argued in favor of rational truth. So you can say he was strongly and expressively against any sort of irrational religious argumentation.
¨
By stating that freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two makes five, you tell that you are open to accept even irrational, religious claims. Maybe you personally do not subscribe to the idea that two plus two makes five, yet you support the right of religious people to hold their irrational beliefs - maybe not of the arithmetic kind, but in the same class of irrationality. Two plus two make five symbolizes the irrationality.
If I state that I do respect your freedom to proclaim the irrationality of two plus two making five, it also says that I respect your freedom to make whatever irrational religious statement that you would like to make.
(Obviously, I reserve the right to argue against the irrationalities, even though I grant you the right to declare them.)
Religious freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make five.
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It's completely wrong to have this discussion here 
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If you have a better place to suggest, please speak up!
(But honestly: I suspect that what you really are saying is: That kind of discussions shouldn't be raised anywhere. There should be no questioning at all. The socalled "truth" should be be accepted with no objections or critical remarks at all. Neither in this forum nor anywhere else.
Religious freedom means the freedom to say that two plus two makes five.
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The basic premise of science is not that "God does not exist", but that "There is no experiment that can be made to detect the presence or absence of God". Therefore, the rational thinking that you refer to is orthogonal to the beliefs of religion.
It is easy to demonstrate that "two plus two equal five" leads to inconsistencies and contradictions. It is less easy to do so in the case of religious beliefs, therefore the state should keep well away from the latter.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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I have seen no indication for my entire life to suggest that a god exists. So my null hypothesis has ended up as "god doesn't exist, until proven otherwise.
You may claim that the opposite null hypothesis: "God exist, until proven not to exist" is logically equivalent. In principle it is, but in view of a few hundred years evidence / non-evidence, formal equivalence must yield to empirical evidence.
Also: In my youth, there was a slogan: If God exists, he must be fought! Some times today, when I watch to those proclaiming to represent the god of my youth, there seems to be something to that slogan.
Religious freedom means the freedom to say that two plus two makes five.
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As there is no evidence for or against the existence of God, the only logically valid stance is, IMO, agnosticism. Not theism (in one of its many guises) or atheism.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Humans have another alternative that is often overlooked. That is ignoring and not answering the question at all.
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The major difference between humans and animals is that humans have developed philosophy.
It rarely gives definitive answers, but the search for them fills many otherwise empty hours. Some of the answers may even have practical application.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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The last few years have shown that holding rational beliefs can be vilified, even by various governments.
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You mean, like in the middle ages?
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I remember reading some Foucault and he said that knowledge is essentially a function of power, in that he seemed to be arguing that even our "science" is subject to the whims of human activity.
I tend to agree. We all have to employ some amount of trust because we cannot hope to build up even empirical knowledge from scratch. We don't have the time in one lifetime.
And it's that trust that can get us in trouble, as much as we need it. Even with science, Max Plank rightly lamented that it advances one funeral at a time. There is power and inertia at play, even in the sciences, where consensus - even incomplete or incorrect consensus all too often carries the day.
I think what tronderen was speaking to was absence of coercion - in this case, being free to be wrong - negative liberty. Imagine if being wrong carried a state enforced penalty!
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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"Two plus two equal five" carries a built-in penalty, in that none of your mathematics (or even your arithmetic) will be consistent. That differs from the state-enforced penalty of misbelieving the state religion.
(Note that many states throughout time have tried to legislate that two plus two make five, or its equivalent. They have all been disabused in short order.)
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Sure being wrong carries all kinds of natural consequences, and that's why I was careful to qualify. I think the ultimate point tronderen was making is that billions of people subscribe to lots of irrational beliefs, and I'd add that I doubt I could find a single person that didn't have at least one. We're not perfect, after all.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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honey the codewitch wrote: We're not perfect, after all.
Agreed.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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honey the codewitch wrote: was making is that billions of people subscribe to lots of irrational beliefs
I believe the Sun will come up tomorrow.
I am not being specious with that declaration either. I have never proven it and I never will. And if someone attempted to provide evidence that contradicted it I would just ignore it. I doubt anyone can find an authority that would prove the subject either.
In the same way I do not believe in unicorns. I might read something that says someone discovered a unicorn and I would dismiss it out of hand, because they are either mistaken in what they discovered or they are changing the definition to apply to something else. It is an absolute Truth for me (with a capital 'T'.)
One can certainly claim that both of the above are rational. But that would be a misstatement of what I said. Both are beliefs for me. I did not arrive at them rationally nor will I think about them rationally in the future.
On the other hand I understand that there are many assumptions in Science. Just one is the belief that if one measures something today then they can measure it tomorrow and get the same result. That is an assumption although certainly many will defend it as a Truth. But they certainly cannot prove it. Myself I don't have a problem with that assumption but I do find fault with those that do not understand that is an assumption (or a belief.)
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Yet both statements "The Sun will rise tomorrow" and "Unicorns do not exist" may be, in principle, falsified by contrary experience. Similar statements about religion cannot be falsified, even in principle. In fact, I would say that the definition of a religious statement is one that cannot be falsified, even in principle.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote: Yet both statements "The Sun will rise tomorrow" and "Unicorns do not exist" may be, in principle, falsified by contrary experience
Perhaps you did not understand what I posted.
Your statement, in regards to me, is false.
Because both are beliefs.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote: I would say that the definition of a religious statement is one that cannot be falsified, even in principle.
Sometimes people attempt a 'scientific' or 'logical' proof to falsify god. Naturally those are always wrong. They can be dismissed immediately. (One might claim they are logically sound although I have not seen that but given that they are not just testing logic but attempting to actually prove god does not exist they are wrong.)
There are many claimed proofs both scientific and logical which attempt to prove god. The scientific ones are nonsense. Often obviously scientifically flawed. Even ludicrously so. Certainly some of the logical ones are sound - not in proving god but rather in that they follow the rules of logic.
Scientifically there are supernatural claims, some religious in nature, which have been falsified. Often, like the above they are obviously scientifically flawed even with a brief examination. But others can be tested.
One of the skeptic magazines has been running/promoting a contest with a very large cash prize for a very long time. Many have applied. Few have actually proceeded to the test. Not surprisingly none have passed the test set up for their specific claim.
One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge - Wikipedia[^]
One of the more recent amusing articles in the skeptics magazine (I can't recall which one) actually enumerated things like how many had asked, then proceeded to request a test, then accepted the test and failed. Then broke it down by the types of claims. Either that article or another described how the testing was done for specific cases.
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