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Nelek14-Aug-23 11:21

14-Aug-23 11:21

Jeremy Falcon wrote:
So easy in fact, I never thought once about moving to a different country until now.

Don't move to Spain then...

M.D.V.

If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
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Jeremy Falcon14-Aug-23 11:29

14-Aug-23 11:29

Good to know. OMG | :OMG:

Jeremy Falcon

Nelek14-Aug-23 12:22

14-Aug-23 12:22

I don't know how the legal status is over there right now, but I can tell you that for the last 20 years people have been smoking cannabis and weed on the street. When I go visit my father, you can smell the neighbour's appartment from the elevator (and it is like 25 to 30 m away).
I have started to drink coffee in the inside of the bars, because outside you get the sun in the face, but if you are not the only person outside, the chances are 70% that they will smoke cigarretes and 50% that it will be a joint

M.D.V.

Jeremy Falcon15-Aug-23 2:13

15-Aug-23 2:13

Sorry to hear that man. That was pretty much Vegas... and it was everywhere. I'm in a "nice" part of Texas now and I just went to a "nice" grocery store this morning. Walked right by people camping in their car overnight in the parking lot blazing it up and caught a buzz. That just happened. Vegas was worse, but still... it's too much.

I dunno about you, but it's making me lose my faith in humanity. Not that there are losers that live on that crap, but the fact nothing is being done about the losers caring little of others.

Jeremy Falcon

Nelek15-Aug-23 8:55

15-Aug-23 8:55

Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I dunno about you, but it's making me lose my faith in humanity.

I lost it a while ago Sigh | :sigh:

M.D.V.

Alister Morton14-Aug-23 23:22

Alister Morton

14-Aug-23 23:22

Or Portugal, IIRC. And as for Amsterdam in The Netherlands...

Jeremy Falcon15-Aug-23 2:14

15-Aug-23 2:14

Good to know. Thanks.

Jeremy Falcon

Nelek15-Aug-23 8:57

15-Aug-23 8:57

My impression of Amsterdam was way cleaner than places I have seen in other countries. Yeah, you might buy in many places, but I didn't see /smell people smoking in public. When I was there as a young adult the hotel people told us to be careful on the street.

That's the good thing of having it regulated, you are allowed what you are allowed, and the rest can be punished even harder.

M.D.V.

Alister Morton15-Aug-23 21:15

Alister Morton

15-Aug-23 21:15

Yes, my impression too on the occasions I've been.

Nelek14-Aug-23 11:21

14-Aug-23 11:21

Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Anyone who thinks that weed stank is acceptable needs to live in Vegas for a year... not as a tourist.

No need... I just need to go home to have the same.

Jeremy Falcon wrote:
It's absolutely abhorrent that humanity is as such a stupid state right now

right now? sadly it has already been like this for some years.

M.D.V.

Jeremy Falcon14-Aug-23 11:30

14-Aug-23 11:30

Nelek wrote:
right now? sadly it has already been like this for some years.

Touché

Jeremy Falcon

trønderen14-Aug-23 3:21

14-Aug-23 3:21

(For the general question of what to forbid, not smoking in particular Smile | :)

One dilemma if you select alternative 2: Who is to decide what is "for the good of society"? We have lots of laws that forbids actions or whatever simply because "You ain't supposed to!" Not because there is any obvious logical reason for it, beyond "You ain't supposed to!".

Most of this has to do with socalled "morals", which usually translates to either the human body or religion. Lots of the regulations are not laws in the legal sense, but "moral laws".

There are lots of words I can't speak, if I am to follow the commandments of church people, even if I do not belong to their faith. There are parts of my body I must keep hidden, according to some people even for my own children. There are things I can see, but I can't preserve a memory of what I saw, using a camera. Maybe not even using a sketchpad and a pencil; that depends. Lots of things I am not allowed to seem, even if I am allowed to know that it exists.

Those defending such laws claim that society would suffer if people did the forbidden thing; that's why it is forbidden. The problem with moral laws is that other cultures without such laws display none of the claimed suffering. In Thailand, if you display your foot soles to the king, you might be thrown in jail for years. That makes no sense to us: What is wrong by letting the king see your foot soles? Here, we rather throw you in jail if you display your "private parts"; that is just so terrible - think of the children! Take our attitudes to non-Westernized cultures where nude bodies can be seen anywhere. Or even go to a nudist resort searching for the terrible suffering of the kids (and adults) there!

Age limits for various knowledge varies greatly around the world. What can be told by school books varies greatly around the world. What is allowed to exist in images/movies, art, literature and so on varies a lot. If I were to move to the land of the free, USA, I would have to leave a couple dozen books behind, as they would be forbidden (depending on the state). I would have to teach my kids to build serious emotional conflicts if they see my body, or I see theirs. In some states I would tell then to keep secret that we know that two people of the same sex truly and honestly love each other. And so on.

Also, there is a great variation from one country/state to another regarding who is allowed to enjoy different kinds of food, drink and other pleasures (often, but not always, determined by age). Again: Documenting consistent harmful effects in countries allowing it, which are consistently absent in countries forbidding it may be difficult or impossible.

For smoking in particular: Sorry, Rob, I am of the sensitive kind that can have trouble breathing if a heavy smoker enters the bus, especially if he sits down on a seat next to me or in front of me, even if he hasn't been smoking for half an hour. If a smoker visits me, as soon as he leaves, I open all windows wide to get that bad air out. (Obviously, I do not permit any indoor smoking in my home.) So I am very much in favor of the current ban on smoking in indoors public places, and I would support a ban even in public outdoors places.

It does affect me. Actually, it affects me even if you only smoke in your own home and your friends' home, if you sit down next to me on the bus. But at least for now I am willing to tolerate that (to allow you to feed that creeping lung cancer of yours Smile | :)

).

I do not consider a ban on public smoking a "moral" law, but a way to protect myself (and others) from harm. I am much more concerned about those "moral" laws where noone whatsoever is harmed; the only harm is breaking that "You ain't supposed to!"

Single Step Debugger14-Aug-23 3:43

Single Step Debugger

14-Aug-23 3:43

trønderen wrote:
If I were to move to the land of the free, USA, I would have to leave a couple dozen books behind, as they would be forbidden (depending on the state).

Out of curiosity can you give me an example?

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trønderen14-Aug-23 5:04

14-Aug-23 5:04

Most of them are in Norwegian, and probably not published in the US of A. One that I know is published is a photo book, aimed at preschoolers, for teaching them the difference between boys and girls: "Show Me!". I've got a couple more in the same group - in the 1980s, using photos for such teaching purposes were fully accepted.

I don't know the legal status of the pocket edition of "Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-tung" (or "The little red book"). Even if it isn't forbidden, you will be treated as a suspected communist by owing it, which would strongly affect both your social life and your professional opportunities. (I didn't buy it because of any sympathy with those ideas, but to try to see what they are. The little red book made no sense at all to me!)

I've been collecting photo art books for four decades. Some of the photos in "Was ist der Mench? Eine Antwort in 1509 Photos", from the first three world exhibitions of photography, are definitely illegal in the US of A (and maybe even in Norway, but I bought the book in a Norwegian bookstore). The photo books by Sally Mann have definitely been banned from a large number of libraries and other public collections in the US of A, but I guess at least some states permit private ownership (I have bought the books through Amazon).

Some of my private writings are such that even in Norway, I keep the text files encrypted. Like after Nine Eleven, I started contemplating what could be the next attack against The American Way. I frequently develop my ideas about various issues as imaginary scenarios, as a novel or script, to see what situations it would create, and which of the actors' reactions I could morally and legally defend. 9/11 led to two of those, and if they got out, I'd be arrested for planning terrorist actions (probably even in Norway). Before you ask: No, they are not, and will never be, published.

Book banning is mostly a state level matter in the US of A; few books are banned by federal authorities. So it could be that for every one of my books, there is at least one state who would not ban its contents. But I am convinced that even in the most liberal state I would risk that visiting neighbors might back off in horror when they discover what is in my bookshelf. Later they might reject any invitation from me, and even be unwilling to talk to me. (Even my Norwegian photography friends are reluctant to discuss Sally Mann photos.)

Single Step Debugger14-Aug-23 5:44

Single Step Debugger

14-Aug-23 5:44

Thanks. Not to make a comparison, but I'm a military history buff and my browsing history can make a Guantanamo resident to blush.

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Jeremy Falcon14-Aug-23 6:28

14-Aug-23 6:28

Once you start taking photos of naked kids everywhere, it's a fine line between learning and child abuse. That's a parental matter anyway and doesn't belong in schoolbooks. Personally, I'm proud of my country for saying no to that.

As far as other books, it's legal to buy the communist manifesto here, so you may wish to double-check where you learned that. You are correct... we are not fond of commies here. But, it's not illegal to think like one.

Jeremy Falcon

trønderen15-Aug-23 10:35

15-Aug-23 10:35

Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Once you start taking photos of naked kids everywhere, it's a fine line between learning and child abuse. That's a parental matter anyway and doesn't belong in schoolbooks.

You tell me that I must not bring the photo albums from my childhood to the US of A.

In my childhood, kids went naked on the beach, or played in the garden naked, until they started school. In my days, that was after you had turned seven. Within the family, kids different sex might go in the shower together until their bodies started showing clear signs of puberty (which was a lot later then than it is today). Noone worried about "child abuse" just because you could see naked kids lots of places. Immature kids were not considered objects for sexual gratification. Cute, of course, so you might want to take their photo, but not in any erotic sense.

The "child abuse" industry has grown as a result of the body panic we see today. It is not an issue in nudist resorts. It is not an issue in cultures where kids run around naked everywhere, not just on the beach. Except that with the current body panic, we have made it "child abuse" just to take a picture of a cute, naked kid on the beach. Or anywhere else. It wasn't in my childhood.

As there are lots of photos of me naked as a kid, by modern standards I was repeatedly abused in my preschool years. Noone knew until forty or fifty years later. You could of course claim that I, without doubt, was a victim, so taking my photo on the beach as a preschooler was not a victimless crime. Therefore, the old photo albums should be burned and any of my relatives, friends or neighbors who ever photographed me, or any other kid, in the nude fifty years ago, should be reported to the police. That is what I do not want.

In some schoolbooks, photos of naked humans do belong, e.g. in sex ed and in geography where you learn about cultures where kids (and even adults) do go naked. Censoring their bodies is censoring of their culture. I suspect that your reference to "schoolbooks" cover a wider range than syllabus books: You don't want "such books" to be available to school kids at all, e.g. in a school library (where kids who don't want to check out such books have their full freedom not to).

You probably won't believe me (and certainly you wouldn't take steps to verify it Smile | :)

): Kids and adults who regularly see naked human bodies of all ages and both sexes, as something everyday, natural thing, are not harmed by seeing one more body. Or a photo of one.

The harm comes from the condemnation, the panic, the fear of something undefined but it is sure to ruin your life.

Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I'm proud of my country for saying no to that.

So I take it that you don't want The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn to be available in your school library in an uncensored version. When they go swimming, not only do they get stark naked, but they even make fun of, draw the attention to, how white their waists are, usually covered by their shorts. When Huck and Jim go down the Mississippi, "we was always naked, day and night, whenever the mosquitos would let us". You can't let vulnerable kids read about anyone who treats nudity as something "natural"!

Jörgen Andersson15-Aug-23 21:17

Jörgen Andersson

15-Aug-23 21:17

trønderen wrote:
In my childhood, kids went naked on the beach, or played in the garden naked

Not just in my childhood, my kids did that as well

Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello

Jeremy Falcon16-Aug-23 1:40

16-Aug-23 1:40

There's a difference between your kid disrobing and playing in the backyard while you chase after them to put undies on and making it a thing to publish pictures of naked kids in books en masse. I don't know why this is lost on some people.

People want to pretend natural this and natural that, but nobody eats natural food or pays attention to natural instincts (like polygamy). We don't live in the garden of Eden anymore. Yet, naked kids is a "natural" thing we fight for? Why?

And yes, that's rhetorical. I know the answer.

Jeremy Falcon

trønderen16-Aug-23 4:19

16-Aug-23 4:19

Jeremy Falcon wrote:
while you chase after them to put undies on

You do not understand this at all. I never chased after my naked dog to put his undies on. In cultures where naked kids are accepted as something normal, they "chase their kids to put undies on" no more than I chase my dog.

I am not afraid of publishing pictures of my naked dog. There are movements in the US of A working for making it unlawful for pets to display their 'private parts', mandating clothing for dogs in public. If we have the same change in attitude to clothing of dogs as we have seen the last 30-40 years in clothing of kids on the beach, we will end up with people pointing to my old photos of naked dogs, asking me in a stern voice why "it is lost on me" that this sort of pictures stimulate zoophilia.

I don't know of many people who let their kids run around naked when the kid wants to (and that is quit a lot) who are "fighting for it" - they are relaxed and ask "Why not?" The fighters are those fighting to ban, to condemn, to create victims, guilt and shame. Not those who thinks it is OK.

Jeremy Falcon17-Aug-23 3:11

17-Aug-23 3:11

The fact you compared kids to dogs means this conversation is pointless.

Jeremy Falcon

trønderen17-Aug-23 7:02

17-Aug-23 7:02

It happened earlier than that. Such as when you compared photographs of kids on the beach to "Poisonous plants and murder" and declared that you "know the answer" to why people think naked kids are OK without relating it to erotic attraction and actions - which seems to be the "natural" reaction in your mind.

Maybe you have been studying Freud a little too much.

If you possibly can, please stay away from kids in my family and my neighborhood. I wouldn't feel safe if you were around them. Especially if they are playing on the lawn or at the beach in little or no clothes. I am truly scared by what goes on in your mind whenever you see a naked child, or even think of one.

Jeremy Falcon17-Aug-23 9:23

17-Aug-23 9:23

Yeah, I don't need moral advice from a commie who carries around pictures of naked kids in books. Take your little moral high ground act and spare me. And, I'll do you one better... stay away from me period. Even online. I don't associate with evil.

And maybe, you haven't studied anything at all.

Jeremy Falcon

Jeremy Falcon16-Aug-23 1:34

16-Aug-23 1:34

trønderen wrote:
You tell me that I must not bring the photo albums from my childhood to the US of A.

There are always going to be people that defend pictures of naked kids and those who are against it. I'm against it. I think it's vile and disgusting and opens the door for predators. Nothing you say will change my mind.

What I find odd is why do people want to see this so much? Why defend it so vehemently? You know what else is natural? Poisonous plants and murder. Humans are supposed to be smarter.

Jeremy Falcon

trønderen16-Aug-23 4:43