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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: now the updates are released after dogfooding on their own VM's, not actual hardware.
That's been my argument as well...maybe their updates are well-tested on VMs, but virtualized hardware (and their well-known drivers) is NOT representative what most people are actually using, and then encounter problems that MS hasn't seen doesn't bother trying to seek out.
For a multi-trillion dollar company, they can do better.
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You misunderstand. They are tested on the developers VM's. At one point, the old testing lab moved from actual hardware to a bunch of VM's before the entire lab was just shutdown and everyone laid off when Satya took over.
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Same difference, updates are only tested on VMs, not real hardware. Whether it's being done by devs or a dedicated QA department really doesn't make much of a difference at that point - a lot of bugs are simply gonna be missed.
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dandy72 wrote: a lot of bugs are simply gonna be missed.
Versus when?
Windows 98 had 13 million lines of code.
Windows 10 has 50 million.
So certainly then one should expect at least 5 times as many.
And how many variations of hardware are there now?
How many variations of software are there now?
As an example Windows 98 was released in 1998. In 1999 99% of computers using the Web were using Internet Explorer. Keeping in mind of course there were quite a few less features then in any browser. But quite a bit less to test to insure it ran on Windows 98. And it was considered part of the OS.
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jschell wrote: Versus when?
A lot of bugs are simply gonna be missed when testing only on VMs versus when instead testing on the infinite "variations of hardware" that exists, as you put it.
They can't cover it all, but they could at least try some subset. Not just VMs.
That's all I was saying; I'm not sure where you were going with your line count comparison. If any comparison's to be made, it should at least be between two versions of the same product line (9x vs NT kernels have rather little to do with each other).
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dandy72 wrote: I'm not sure where you were going with your line count comparison.
I started off my post with a statement that made it clear.
"Versus when?"
Your post seems to be comparing now to some other time. And I was asking that.
Then I gave a comparison of different time periods that demonstrate the complexity of now versus then. You can provide a different time period if you wish.
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I wasn't focusing on code complexity. I was focusing on the fact that MS only tests on VMs nowadays, and that's not sufficient as it's not representative of the real-world computers actual people use.
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Except there is no way that Microsoft can test in any reasonable way using actual hardware.
Any combination chosen is going to be a very, very small subset of what is out there.
Not to mention that the introduction of the management software onto the machine which would allow them to automate the process would itself change the nature of the test environment and thus guarantee that no machine would match it.
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I agree, it's unrealistic to expect them to have every combination and permutation of hardware imaginable on hand.
But they used to have a pretty good subset of the most popular hardware, and that's reasonable. But at some point they just gave up on even that, and that's pretty much inexcusable for a company of their size/worth. "Works on VMs" is as lazy as "works on the dev's machine".
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That explains why I've had unalloyed success with Windows 10 - I run it on a virtual machine on a Linux host.
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Or even a better alternative is let the user of the computer decide what and when...
"If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization." ― Gerald Weinberg
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I will say that Mac updates aren't much better.
I’ve given up trying to be calm. However, I am open to feeling slightly less agitated.
I’m begging you for the benefit of everyone, don’t be STUPID.
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I just continue to decline the upgrade to Windows 11.
Its not like it will provide me with anything I actually need...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Hi Steve, I suggest Win 11's improvements to WSL might be worth looking at:
arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/10/the-best-part-of-windows-11-is-a-revamped-windows-subsystem-for-linux/
It's all about your use cases, of course. Given I spec/built my own tower, Win11 works well for me (except for the now fixed Ryzen 5600-TPM stuttering). What I *do* like about it is the relentless Fluent UI integration, which Just Works.
- BTW, I'm an ex-MS 25+ year Senior Escalation Engineer (Win9x/NT services/Open Spec Team). Win 11 has more abstraction in the shell, which is good. There is more *fun* in the registry for the shell, not all of which is exposed in Settings, which is not so good. Time for some git gists.
What would be great features for Win 10/11 would be tear-off tabs and preset tab sets in File Explorer.
Bill Wesse
Bill Wesse
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I just got a brand new XPS 8950 and powered up for the first time on May 11. After connecting to the internet, Windows started to check for updates -- and hung! (The little blue arc on the circle just stopped) Finally Dell told me to do a clean shutdown and restart. Lo! Windows11 came up with no further difficulty, except that it is really ugly after ten years of Windows 7.
Joan F Silverston
jsilverston@cox.net
nhswinc.com
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Trim this French guy to confused endless nothing! Is the best! (9)
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
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Paramount ?
In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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Nope
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
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Thank goodness for that - it's a very complicated clue
In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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It's a nice word... not very common, I guess. Came across it in the papers yesterday after a long time.
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
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Paradisal?
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Nope.
OT: OriginalGriff wrote: Paradisal
isn't a word we see in the papers lately 
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
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Yay! YAUT 
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
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You'll have to explain it, though. I had none for endless nothing and guessed from Is the best! I assume that confused is an anagram indicator, but I don't know how to get pareil from Trim this French guy, even if anagrammed.
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