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fgs1963 wrote: that politics / religion...are the things that kept enough of us alive and organized enough to let science thrive and allow us to communicate over thousands of miles in near real-time using little keyboards. Just saying...
What? Seriously?
Religion and politics want dumb people because they are easier to manage.
Religion has been long and stark enough against science in most of its forms.
Politics no exactly against per se, but still has made it go slower because of bureacracy.
The ones that have always helped science and technology were the militars (but not exactly for the good).
M.D.V. 
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Nelek wrote: What? Seriously?
Religion and politics want dumb people because they are easier to manage.
Religion has been long and stark enough against science in most of its forms.
Politics no exactly against per se, but still has made it go slower because of bureacracy.
If you bring anything more than about 10 people together to achieve anything which benefits the group that structure must exist. And that is politics. 10,000 people can't build a wall if every single one of them attempts to plant the first brick.
And those same groups are susceptible to down turns in the survival of the group as a whole. And the real world provides nothing to provide emotional support. But religion does.
The fact that some people at some times misuse that can only be surprising if one is not aware that individuals are selfish, lazy, murderous, etc.
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People cooperating to build things isn't politics. Politics is the antithesis of that: it's organized violence.
The ones who are typically selfish, lazy, and murderous are politicians. The 20th century is great testament to that. Sometimes religious zealots behave the same way, but they can't hold a candle to politicians.
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Greg Utas wrote: People cooperating to build things isn't politics.
'Organizations' at a certain point must require and enforce structure or they fail to achieve anything.
Greg Utas wrote: The ones who are typically selfish, lazy, and murderous are politicians
Nonsense.
That is a generalization that people make without understanding people or organizations.
Someone like Hitler doesn't magically enforce their view on millions of people without those people also making some decisions that enable that single person to act in certain ways.
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Governments, led by politicians, have killed far more people than criminals. The fact that some people support them doesn't make it nonsense.
May your chains rattle lightly.
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Greg Utas wrote: Governments, led by politicians, have killed far more people than criminals. The fact that some people support them doesn't make it nonsense.
Simplification.
Countries/kingdoms have killed more people because those groups and the ones they strive against are a vastly larger group than "criminals". So of course that would be true.
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I wasn't thinking of wars, but of governments that killed millions of their own citizens. Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, and numerous others who didn't reach the million mark.
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And sometimes mothers kill all of their children.
All you are talking about is scale.
If you have a solution that solves the problems that large organizations solve such as building dams and ensuring that the neighboring tribes do not kill your family members then you should start getting the idea out there.
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1) I’m considering politics & religion in all of their forms over 10,000 years not merely Christianity and western democracies. Think ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Asians, etc…
2) I’m not saying politics & religion always helped science progress directly. In some cases, they just kept people inline well enough to survive. Versus tribal warfare killing everyone off.
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fair enough
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
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honey the codewitch wrote: As a species, what are we really trying to accomplish, other than base continuation?
looking at the news for the last years, I would not bet about it.
Individually humans can do great good. As a species... I am not that sure anymore.
M.D.V. 
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honey the codewitch wrote: As a species, what are we really trying to accomplish, other than base continuation?
Since even base continuation is not a rationale as such, I do not think that there is a reason as to why we are here and what we are here for ; it is a fact that we are here, and that's it.
I also would not bother about finding a common goal : Due to conservation instinct that seems to be embedded in our genes, and that drives a good majority of people to think about their own wellness before the one of the group, we have not bright future as a specie. Since this drives us towards more conflicts and critical situations, and critical situations tend to emphasizes individualism, the vicious circle has already started ; put briefly, it is not a matter of "if", it is a matter of "when".
Anyway, we are here, let's make the best out of it- and the definition of "best" is different for everyone.
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Rage wrote: Due to conservation instinct that seems to be embedded in our genes, and that drives a good majority of people to think about their own wellness before the one of the group
I'd argue the problem is larger than human nature. We are billions of loosely networked agents in a Complex Adaptive System.
Such systems always have a collection of chaotic agents, and will reproduce them. These agents are destructive the way a volcano is destructive - violent renewal. They chip away at the system but that keeps it adaptive.
Such systems go through bifurcation cycles where the orderly agents are more actively in conflict with the chaotic agents and vice versa.
Dual-phase evolution in complex adaptive systems | Journal of The Royal Society Interface[^]
We're in a heavy conflict part of the cycle in societies in various parts of the world.
Every single thing that acts as an agent becomes part of a complex adaptive system once those networked agents achieve critical mass. Such a system "takes on a life of its own" whether it's governments, economies, societies or ecosystems.
To summarize my point we can't escape conflict, not because of who we are, but basically ... because of math.
Conflict is both inevitable and necessary in our case.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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The point is ! there is no point 
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming “Wow! What a Ride!" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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Quote: The point is ! there is no point
That tends towards how I think:
Why are we here? There is no reason. We just are.
So what are we going to do while we are here?
1) We can do things for ourselves.
2) We can do things for others (human & non-human) for whom we've developed empathy.
3) A mix of 1 & 2.
I fall into group 3 with a much stronger emphasis on others compared with myself.
Best wishes from Minnesota,
modified 4-Nov-22 12:39pm.
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We are just doing our job. We are just the next step. Hopefully up and forward. As the cavemen who invented the speech made a huge leap forward. I have no idea where this pat is leading, bit we need to pay our evolutional debts.
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet!
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Man is defined by their projects.
"Before entering on an understanding, I have meditated for a long time, and have foreseen what might happen. It is not genius which reveals to me suddenly, secretly, what I have to say or to do in a circumstance unexpected by other people; it is reflection, it is meditation." - Napoleon I
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Ummm. Where to begin. First look at human history (the good and bad). It's about what our minds can accomplish to make life easier and better. That's simple and not always successful, but the nature of our species. The long term goal is to conquer space. Find and visit other planets so that life might continue. Earth has a finite lifetime.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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I don't mind being dead. It's the dying part that worries me. 
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Quote: As a species, what are we really trying to accomplish, other than base continuation?
This anthropomorphizes the species. Only its individuals try to accomplish anything. Dawkins (The Selfish Gene) would say that we, like all species, evolved as survival machines for our genes. But declining birth rates in developed economies suggest that we can subvert our genes' impetus for procreation.
If there's a why for us being here, it's beyond me. I think that dying leading to taking off your virtual reality glasses is as good a guess as any. 
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I'm not trying to anthropomorphize us as a singular cohesive entity, although I may be too hopeful in hoping we can rally around some common goal, absent an external existential threat.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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I am glad someone mentioned Selfish Gene!
What is the reason for the existence of a human or a retro virus? pro-create.
My favorite thought from that book is the overwhelming realization that every living organism today has had ancestors that successfully reproduced since the primordial ooze.
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Agent Smith told it to Morpheus pretty clear...
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Quote: What I mean by that is what is core drive, aside from survival?
I don't know. However, I enjoy programming.
"In testa che avete, Signor di Ceprano?"
-- Rigoletto
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Quote: Why are we here, and I mean absent some sort of artifice we create to rationalize our existence?
Well, the answer to that has to be individual. Why are you here? Why am I here? We'll get two different answers. And I don't mean philosophical answers.
For example, "I'm here" (in the sense of being present and accounted for) because I want to make a contribution in some way. Code Project articles. A book I'm writing with a friend. Simply a really good conversation with a friend, or a stranger, that makes a difference, however small, in each of our lives.
honey the codewitch wrote: As a species, what are we really trying to accomplish, other than base continuation?
Even that is leads to an individual answer. I have certain spiritual convictions that tell me why. Others have equally valid answers, or no answer at all other than "well, I was born." That's valid too, IMO.
The problem with philosophical discussion is that it pretty much stays in the realm of the abstract. As Steiner said: "All genuine philosophers have truly been artists in concepts." I'm not really interested in the artistry of philosophical concepts, rather I'm interested in each of our individual reasons.
So, why are you here? 
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