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I feel the same way -- I'm a self-taught dev with almost 2yr CIS degre (I'm missing Mgmnt 205 class & COBOL III) and I'd have a degree.
Thankfully there are still some apprentice-ship type jobs in IT that if the person simply has the skills then they can do the work -- and not have to pay $75K for a 4 year degree.
Also, congrats to you & your daughter. Very smart choices.
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Location? 60k in NY or LA are below poverty threshold. I'd get 1.5 times my current salary here in Italy, and my salary is already high for Italian standards.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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den2k88 wrote: 60k in NY or LA are below poverty threshold.
That is a sick situation. Big cities are ridiculously overhyped and overpriced.
The author is in Pittsburgh so the salary is more "mid-west" baseline & to me is a high range for intro. dev.
Reading the book has opened my eyes that I'm underselling myself a bit. I have 30 years of IT & 22 years of Software Development with growth -- always focused on new tech & learning more.
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Tech is different. In the 90s when I started, the smart companies like Microsoft valued the ability to whiteboard a problem over degrees and even sometimes experience.
Maybe I am an outlier case? But anyway, that's how I managed to go from being a homeless teen with a GED to working in Microsoft at the end of the 90s.
Tech is the great equalizer, in some respects. If you have raw talent, the rest is up to you, so it doesn't surprise me at all to see companies offer alternative paths to dev employment
Honestly I think it would be better as a vocational style craft, but we hardly do that kind of thing anymore, at least in the states.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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Yep I agree 100%
I'm a self-taught dev with almost 2yr CIS degre (I'm missing Mgmnt 205 class & COBOL III) and I'd have a degree.
I worked into QA, went into Capacity & Performance Mgmnt (load testing, etc) and finally, in 2000, got my first Dev job & have been doing development since then.
Thankfully there are still some apprentice-ship type jobs in IT that if the person simply has the skills then they can do the work.
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I think a voc tech craft type placement would be better for this industry as well. It is just simply amazing to me the number of juniors I have taught the basics too. But it has also been very rewarding.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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60k/year is less than any entry-level salary in engineering in Germany (I am not talking net worth here, so take another 27% down if net worth) by about at least 15k. Probably 20k if IT.
Note that the current job market is literally craving for IT competencies, so with or without boot camp, if you can put two lines of code together that pass testing, you'll easily get a job for more than 50k/year.
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location, talent pool and I hate AVERAGES without clarity of data as extremes will skew.
My main bit is lack of the middle, daily, its a job type worker.
As such junior/entry seem to be placed into that middle position very quickly, but the expectation that 3 years experience is greater then other fields of 20 years experience, in salary terms at least.
Boot Camps, yes. Give Sally in HR a 6 week boot camp, and if proves useful, will be self improving the HR, minor things, the little daily routines that could be automated, if was less intimidated by that Excel macro, or some batch script, or even low-code to allow them to spend time on other tasks.
And if business care, would pay for this training, and give a significant salary boost
Need someone to engineer a mission critical health product, 6 week boot camp, plus the 5 years before self learning, and 10 years earning a living wage within doing health related product, sure.
Many can learn to make a shelf and hang it "suitably", not everyone needs to know how to use and own a furnace and smelt their own nails.
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IIRC my brother's girlfriend got around that in Pittsburgh PA 3ish years ago after completing a bootcamp.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
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Very interesting. So this all seems quite real. I'm amazed.
Bootcamp would've been great for me. Instead, I took about 8 years of bootcamp in my first roles in the IT industry. I got shoved around a lot.
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The problem I suspect with bootcamp only backgrounds is going to be getting your 2nd or 3rd jobs. They give a very narrowly focused education without the background needed to support growing into more advanced roles. Obviously not impossible, but much closer to a self-taught career path where you need to do a lot more learning on your own time as you go.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
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but those other skills can be learned outside and on the job. Heck in fact many organizations have their own versions of softskills training that helps foster growth in people. (At least they say it does)
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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Sitting in a cold bedroom, on a cold chair, touching cold keys and I'm cold.
In my dark bedroom, feeling the weight of my years, and sleep is not in the cards.
I brew some liquid daylight and the caffeine in it will help.
Crack my knuckles. Plan, code, execute.
My keyboard is warm now.
![Java | [Coffee]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/coffee.gif)
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
modified 2-May-22 8:11am.
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honey the codewitch wrote: My keyboard is warm now.
Just tell us you didn't spill your ![Java | [Coffee]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/coffee.gif) over it ... 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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And ruin $200 of the nicest keyboard I've ever owned? Never!
Nah, it's simple friction.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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In my experience electronics can't be ruined that easily with liquids... Once - in an other lifetime - I managed to soak my C64 in beetroot juice... Washed it in isopropyl alcohol, dried it and all worked fine...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.”
― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
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If it worked fine, it sounds like you made an upgrade!
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I dumped an entire large coffee on my Microsoft Natural ergonomic keyboard 10 years ago.
I figured, uh oh, it's dead.
But, I dried it all off and shook it out & plugged it back in & it worked.
Still using that keyboard! 
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I had an S8 Active Samsung phone which claimed to be waterproof to some depth or other and I accidentally dropped it into a hot, soapy bath - aaargh! I pulled it out, dried it with a towel - and it carried on working fine as if nothing had happened. It showed a message saying the charging port might have moisture in it but after I briefly blew into it that went away.
Electronics these days are sometime more resilient than you would think... but never when you really, really need it to be! 
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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I have one of those, too. It is my alarm clock now. Samsung does the slow down trick like Apple used to so it is unusable
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The story with the IBM System/38 (which had built in keyboard/console, 8 inch floppy driver reader and disk storage) was that it intentionally did not have any horizontal surfaces just to prevent people from setting beverages on top.
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Uzi Granot - Professional Profile[^]
MVP, cogent article writer, member for 19 years.
My condolences to his family: Is this about 'our' Uzi  [^] ![Rose | [Rose]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif)
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Sorry to hear that, my condolences as well.
"In testa che avete, Signor di Ceprano?"
-- Rigoletto
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Didn't he post recently? I did not see that coming.
My condolences to his family as well.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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