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Greg Utas wrote: Wealth is not a sign of lack of humanity.
No, not directly a sign, but the latter is often used to drive the former, so that should not be denied either. There is enough of a correlation for me that I want to see proof of humanity first before I will find the subject worthy of praise.
In order to make it to the top without being a snake in a suit, you really have to be clever and quick, and I won't deny Musk has both in some fields, but that still does not prove he isn't a snake also. The truth is, I just don't know.
There is no need for me to hold him in any kind of special high regard. I still have "don't look up" echoing somewhere on my retina.
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Dehumanizing the wealthy as predatory criminals is a nice way to set up for a purge, isn't it?
Most of us have seen this play already and we know how it ends.
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I have seen this discussion trick already.
Just don't put words in my mouth, ok? And, now that we're at it, don't pretend that you didn't try it ..
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You asked for proof of humanity.
Elon Musk has to prove his humanity to you?
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"to hold him in any kind of special high regard" I wrote. Don't leave that out.
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That doesn't change the message.
He still has to prove his humanity - which is something that should be granted.
My guess is you meant: He has to demonstrate some sort of moral fibre.
If that is the case then we're in agreement.
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I could not disagree with you more.
Socialism, and Communism died a long time ago. (Think Russia)
Elon Musk has succeeded in a very demanding and and cut-throat environment.
Do you feel the same way about Bill Gates? Or Steve Jobs?
Wealth is attained by providing goods and services that people want, and need.
Those guys worked hard and took risks that most people on this earth would not.
Adam Smith's "Supply and Demand" isn't just a good idea, it's the law.
I know you are entitled to your opinion, but so am I, and this is mine.
I do wish you well.
Ed
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Im curious to see what elon does with twitter, if he is allowed to purchase it.
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Slow Eddie wrote: Wealth is attained by providing goods and services that people want, and need.
Those guys worked hard and took risks that most people on this earth would not.
With all due respect, but that's a very naive point of view.
A whole lot of people work hard and take risks, yet only very few of them are this disproportionately rich.
People like Bezos, Musk and Gates are this wealthy because of luck, being at the right place at the right time, possibly with the right product.
I'm not saying they didn't work hard, and you can enforce luck to some extent, but luck is still a huge factor.
And then when they get that lucky break, and the money comes rolling in, there's no stopping it.
These companies buy out their competition, have the best lawyers, pay relatively few tax, are so ingrained in every day life it's nearly impossible to fight them (or not use them, for that matter)...
People who say "just don't use Facebook" are probably unaware that even if they don't have a FB account, FB is still harvesting their data because every website with a FB like/share-button is sharing their browser- and usage data with FB.
Yes, they are that powerful and omnipresent, you can't not-use them.
As for "lack of humanity", Musk threatened to close an entire factory, making hundreds of people jobless, because he didn't like the state's (temporary) COVID rules (I don't know if he ultimately did it).
The richest person on earth, Bezos, is paying his employees the minimum of the minimum while conditions wouldn't even be legal in most of Europe.
Steve Jobs was known for being a real a**hole.
None of them have any difficulty with moving production to China for the lowest possible wages and the worst conditions.
Meanwhile their huge hunger for even more of our (often illegally gotten, sold or traded) data is slowly killing off the planet with their huge data centers.
The petrochemical industry is even worse, they've actively hidden reports that showed them they were killing the planet for decades.
The rich pharmaceuticals have more than once been compared to maffia, and not because they are such good and hard working people.
Your supply and demand is also not that simple.
For example, there's a huge demand for healthcare workers and teachers, yet they won't earn as much as an average IT consultant.
There's now a huge demand for houses and prices go up, yet after WWII there was an equal demand for houses, but prices didn't go up simply because people couldn't afford them if they did.
You are entitled to your opinion, but I find it a dangerous one, because if we can't call out these people and companies for what they are, lucky and evil to some extent, we can't fight them and we can't make this world a better place.
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Well written generic response. Yes, luck is always a factor, that goes for every single person on earth.
But let's get specific:
How many companies / competitors did Musk buy?
Did he work his butt off and take risks very few others would have, including putting his entire net worth into companies like SpaceX and Tesla, which both came very close to bankruptcy?
Did he work at least as long hours as his employees? By all reports, he doesn't have much of a personal life.
You obviously haven't done much research, because Tesla didn't close the Fremont factory. Instead, they have expanded it to the point where it's producing way more than it ever did under GM or Toyota.
As for moving production to China, yes, he built a factory in Shanghai. But you will note that it does not export back to the USA, and is only exporting some production to Europe until the German factory is in full production. It's friendlier for the environment and probably better for business (if done efficiently) to produce locally where the goods are going to be sold.
Similarly, the new Texas factory will be selling to the eastern US.
By all reports, all of those factories are some of the best designed and run in the world. While there are obviously some disgruntled ex-employees, Tesla and SpaceX also seem to retain the loyalty and enthusiasm of a lot of their employees, unlike, for example, Amazon.
As for net worth, this has effectively been 'voted' to them by their investors, and allowed/encouraged by the elected officials of the land.
If you have an issue with that, there is an obvious remedy. Change the government.
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This same dynamic played out during the Russian Revolution.
The basic premise is that any person in power or who had money was by necessity evil.
People were placed in the gulag for the crime of having employed other people.
That isn't an exaggeration or a joke - paying someone else a salary made you a criminal.
Because of that premise the entire power structure in Russia had to be replaced via revolution.
So the person you're trying to refute is using the same premise.
The rich are inherently corrupt.
You'll get nowhere in the discussion with this person because they hold that as a statement of faith.
The idiocy of that position is that somehow government officials (State of California) cannot be corrupt even though they are rich and powerful. So the expectation is that Elon Musk bend over and take it up the backside and not protest in any way despite what whack-a-doodle policies come down from Sacramento.
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It's not that the rich are inherently corrupt or evil, it's just that in order to get that rich you usually have to be pretty relentless and such money is almost always made over the backs of other people.
You could say that's just business as usual, or that some of those rich companies offer great products and/or services while also treating their employees pretty well.
But even if such a rich person is a paragon of pure justice, no person should be able to wield so much money (and the power that comes with it).
I simply think it's not good for society as a whole.
The society could use that money, Elon Musk, at this point, cannot.
He has so much money he can't even spend it all, ever (I realize he doesn't have all that money on his bank account, but in stock options).
Meanwhile, he pays a relative low percentage of tax (which is unfair on it's own).
Right now, he doesn't like Twitter (neither do I, mind you) and he has the money and power to outright buy it and do with it as he wishes.
That's what all these companies do, buy the competition, or anything they don't like, and shut it down or integrate it in their own business model.
That's not democratic or capitalist (read, fair market competition), it's much closer to communism where one party owns everything (I'm speaking in American terms here, us Europeans are much less concerned about capitalist vs. communism).
For example, at this point, you're kind of an outsider if you're not on social media (Facebook, Instagram and/or WhatsApp).
Especially in the Netherlands, it's difficult to live without WhatsApp, it's everywhere.
Friends communicate through WhatsApp, parties are planned on WhatsApp, invites are send on WhatsApp, even payments are requested through WhatsApp.
You can simply dismiss such claims by saying "just don't create an account", but us people really want to belong and these tools make that possible.
You'd have to have a very strong personality or beliefs not to make an account on any of these platforms.
And all are owned by Facebook.
Ergo, to belong to a group, or even society as a whole, you have to sell your data to Facebook, you don't really have a choice.
And even if you don't, Facebook is harvesting your data anyway because every website that has a Facebook share button (which is pretty much every website, including CP) sends your data to Facebook.
You just can't not-use Facebook!
And as Zuck has proven times and again, he really can't be trusted with our data.
The guy should be in jail after all the Facebook scandals, but because he's filthy rich he can afford the best lawyers and buy his way out.
The fines don't even hurt him or Facebook because they make so much money we can't even imagine it.
The same goes for Apple, Google, Microsoft and Amazon (Amazon isn't that big in The Netherlands), and all other really large and rich companies for that matter (oil, pharmacy, etc.).
Now you tell me, is that fair? Is that righteous? Could there be a ring of truth to "big companies are evil"?
Amazon treats and pays its employees like crap while their boss is the richest person on the planet (richer than entire countries!).
People say "just don't work for Amazon", but people need jobs and Amazon provides.
1 out of every 153 employed people works for Amazon, that makes Amazon incredibly powerful and when people massively choose not to work for Amazon the American economy will probably collapse or at least see a steep fall.
So you see, these people don't choose to work for Amazon, they choose not to be unemployed so they can at least put food on the table.
That's how powerful a company or even a person can be.
I don't have a clear solution, but we really can't solve the problem until people recognize and acknowledge it's a problem at all (even if it's a completely legal situation, mind you).
It may not be evil or corrupt, but it's still a situation we shouldn't want to be in.
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My post wasn't about Musk specifically, but about billionaires and huge companies in general.
Member 13496917 wrote: How many companies / competitors did Musk buy?
I can't say I know much about Musk, but ask that question for all other rich people/companies.
Google, Microsoft, Facebook... They eat competitors for breakfast.
Again, I'm not saying these people do not work hard or that they don't take risks.
What I am saying is that many people do so, but don't get anywhere near where these people are and that the biggest difference is often dumb luck.
Member 13496917 wrote: You obviously haven't done much research, because Tesla didn't close the Fremont factory.
I already mentioned I didn't know how that ended.
However, my point is that Musk was not at all concerned about his employees, he was concerned about losing profits.
Member 13496917 wrote: As for net worth, this has effectively been 'voted' to them by their investors, and allowed/encouraged by the elected officials of the land.
If you have an issue with that, there is an obvious remedy. Change the government.
I think you make a good point here.
Our system is broken.
If someone, by either hard work, risk, luck or coincidence, makes it past a certain point, the system simply will not stop it.
These people are so tremendously rich we can't even imagine it.
There's a point where they stop working for it and it'll simply come to them.
Musk never needs to work a day in his life anymore and he'll earn more money in the next hour than we will in a lifetime (he'll earn about $18 million this hour alone).
However, we'll pay a bigger percentage of our income to taxes than Musk.
And through their money, these people have great power.
They make and break politicians, laws, people, companies...
To me, that's not deserved or fair anymore, that's a broken system.
Meanwhile, many people are defending these ultra rich and saying "they've worked hard so they deserve it!" and I think that's simply not the case.
Tell me, why is Musk's hard work and risk taking more than a billion times worth more than yours or mine?
Simply put, tax everything above $1bln and everyone will be happy (the billionaires won't even notice a billion more or less!)
Also note that these rich people are mainly in the USA, where taxes are low, wealth is unevenly distributed and employees are not very well protected.
I think the USA strikes a balance between Europe and "third world" countries and has "the best of both" if you're an employer.
Becoming as rich as the richest Americans is almost impossible in pretty much any other country on earth.
In the top ten richest people on Earth right now, only three (out of 194 countries) are not from the USA (and Forbes says "& family" for two of those).
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Judging people's "level of humanity" or demonizing them based on their wealth or lack thereof is logically fallacious. Free market capitalism is the only economic system that has raised the living standard of the whole world. What you seem to be doing is Simping for Marxists.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
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That sounds like the rant of your typical Communist.
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And yet you gave my comment a thumbs down? 
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
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Sorry, that must have been my mistake!
Nothing worse than referring to someone as Communists/Marxists.
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Reminds of back in 2007 -- "Say what you want about Bernie Madoff... but he's winning!"
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Well, it's hard to hate a hardworking man who does so much in different fields
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Well, I have seen more out of Musk that makes me believe he understands social interaction better then Bill Gates. Bill Gates NEVER polled his user base about anything, just pushed his latest "improvement" to a captive audience. Don't even start about Linux on the desktop... Not that anyone is comparing directly, but Gates is a real oligarch and fascist. Musk seems to be more of an attention whore much like Trump.
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Love it when a hard working African American makes it Big.
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Free speech only scares people whose house is built on a pack of lies.
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