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No blues ?
"I didn't mention the bats - he'd see them soon enough" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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Thinking about this article https://thenewstack.io/challenging-the-myth-that-programming-careers-end-at-40/[^] and lot of voices here echo just doing development work for decades but one thing that I am curious about is how do you manage getting $$$ amount that align to your skill set.
Programming jobs by and large has celling on how much you can make doing certain things. You can know number of tools and tech but still there is a limit to what you can make unless you are a wiz working at top tier company.
How did you overcome this obstacle?
Zen and the art of software maintenance : rm -rf *
Maths is like love : a simple idea but it can get complicated.
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"Getting rich" is a combination of luck and timing; same thing applies to jobs. In the early years, you could make a killing if you knew SAP; now you can find SAP jobs on rent-a-coder. Timing and luck; you just have to make yourself available. And jobs can evolve in unexpected ways; possibly making you an "in demand" expert for a particular skill you learned "on the job".
The next "phase", if it pans out, will be quantum computing; to which you can already get free access (since they haven't figured out any commercial uses for it yet).
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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virang_21 wrote:
How did you overcome this obstacle?
I haven't yet. 
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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I still have two years to go 
I've come to realize I don't want to go into management, at least not in the next couple of years. I enjoy development, research, etc. but the admin side isn't that nice and I wouldn't want to do it full time. I don't mind being paid less than a manager if I don't have to deal with that side of the process.
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I'm 48 (plus change) and a developer for 24...
Has a lot of experience, but as with most of us - it is field specific.
While I can learn everything based on my experience, almost no employer will take the chance (they think learning must be done under 30)...
So the options are limited. Either I stay in development and the only advance in payment will be linked to inflation, or move on to management and get a bit more...
It is actually a kind of balance one should find. If you are in it for getting rich, than start moving fast and early. If you are in for the love of what you are doing, than look for the money can get you on and going day-by-day...
Depending on your ways you can get fully satisfied in both ways at the end, however richness not guaranteed...
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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I was a month short of 46 when I was offered my last job, older than all the competition by at least 10+ years. And I held the job for 15 moderately lucrative years. Only lost it (at 61) following a takeover of the company and the usual round of redundancies.
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49 years old here and just got a job at EA Games (starting in 5 days.. yeeee) with 0 knowledge of game engine! 
They were looking for a WPF developer and I fit the bill quite well plus I am curious good at learning and my resume shows it!
Also working on contract now which pays quite well.
It used to be difficult to get a job. It seems much easier these days. It's a combination, I reckon. I changed job every 3 years so I guess I did lots of things. And I also try to alternate web and WPF so I got good skill coverage. Plus I always strive to be be good at my job and learn all I need, so I have answers to many question if they want to grill my skills. And also, funnily enough I reckon, the more they pay you, the more they are trusting you, even during the job interview. Although that last one make some sort of sense an under performing expensive contractor get ditched pretty quick....
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I'm really curious what EA needs WPF for.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
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I know that my first task will be some tweaking of the Frostbyte editor, which is a WPF app, apparently...
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The most important thing is not to make assumptions about the hirer's assumptions and what cannot be. "They don't accept...", "I can't because you have to...".
If you want it, go for it. Your hit rate will be lower as you get older but, your ability to sell yourself and the product on your shelf will be better.
You only definitely cannot get it if you don't ask/try for it. Dutch saying, "Nee heb je, ja kun je krijgen", "You have no, yes you can get".
Having said that I knew people who considered themselves "on the heap" at 35 but, it was untested attitude not fact.
Andy
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virang_21 wrote: How did you overcome this obstacle?
remote - contractor (7 years now for me).
you will never be paid what you are worth if you continue to work for an employer as a regular full time employee. You must go independent contractor, which is almost always remote (work from home). Granted, I don't get paid time off, only sick leave, so that adds an extra $32K to the salary, which is great.
Pro tip: ALWAYS get a 5-8K+ pay increase when starting a new job. NEVER take the same pay as your last job.
Pro tip: NEVER specialize in a technology that is not in demand. ALWAYS keep your skill set current.
I jumped jobs every 2 years for a while till I was making a competitive salary and before I went independent contractor.
your goal is to be making 130K+ by the time you hit 12-15 years in the business; sooner if you are lucky.
![Java | [Coffee]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/coffee.gif)
modified 29-Jun-21 4:52am.
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I got laid off 30 years ago at the age of 41 and could not find a job to save my life, even though I lived in Silicon Valley. As a result, I went into independent consulting. No one would hire a consultant on a 1099, so I incorporated (C-corp). This became very lucrative until the downturn in the economy circa 2011. As a result I decided to retire shortly thereafter when I turned 62.
The nice thing about a C-corp is that you can virtually deduct everything, including health care and contributions to retirement plans, etc. My monthly salary was held to a minimum, thus reducing my taxes. The only downside was that I contributing less to my Social Security, which makes my retirement check less. I estimate the corporation made up to $191K a year prior to my retirement 10 years ago.
In my opinion, it is difficult to get a "real" job after you turn 40, but that doesn't mean it's the end of your career.
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Slacker007 wrote: Pro tip: ALWAYS get a 5-8K+ pay increase when starting a new job. NEVER take the same pay as your last job.
I'm terrible when it comes to putting a number together. What I've always done is state upfront what I was making at my last job, but if they decide to keep me after 3 months, I'm expecting a healthy raise. Maybe it's just me, but that approach has always worked out. Not that I'm job-hopping--at the age of 49, I've only gone through the hiring process 3 times in my life (well, in my career as a software developer).
Slacker007 wrote: Pro tip: NEVER specialize in a technology that is not in demand. ALWAYS keep your skill set current.
At the same time, don't confuse "in demand" with "common". If you have a skillset that nobody else has, and you have someone with the need, you can ask for just about anything you want.
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I'm 49 years old. I only posted what worked for me. Obviously, everyone else's life situation will be different.
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Exactly. There's no one-size-fits-all solution. I just wanted to add my own perspective. There's no wrong or right.
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virang_21 wrote: How did you overcome this obstacle?
I wouldn't equate a ceiling on salary as an "obstacle". It depends what your priorities are. As a developer, I now earn half what I did as Head Of IT for a multinational. But I now: work mostly, 9-5; have very little stress; and enjoy writing software far more than managing an IT Team.
And don't assume that age is just a barrier to landing a Programming job. Ageism exists at every level.
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1. Add value. In my case, this was developing in-house application frameworks that significantly improved productivity.
2. Find managers who understand the value. If you end up with one who doesn't, plan to move on. This can be internally if you're at a large enough firm.
3. Move to a jurisdiction where you're treated as less of a milk cow at tax time. This also made a big difference for me.
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Greg Utas wrote: Add value
This is key.
If you absolutely must stay as a permie employee (I've never found any convincing reason for this) then you need to make certain your bosses really understand the contribution your work makes to the bottom line, and that you are not replaceable. If you then "waver" in your loyalty to the company, you may get a pay increase that partially reflects your value.
But the surer way is to go freelance, and charge by results, not time spent. No-one's going to be happy paying you $500/hour, but if you can do $5000 worth of work and you let them think it took you a week, they'll be happy to pay. They don't need to know you did it in a day, and put your feet up the other 4 days (or did similar work for 4 other clients). The key here is to really understand the requirements before you quote (including the likelihood of those requirements changing), then making sure you meet your own estimates, and ideally over-delivering.
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Whether an employee or contractor, it has to start with delivering value.
Or at least until recently: Dilbert 2020-12-24[^]
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virang_21 wrote: has celling on how much you can make doing certain things.
Everything has a ceiling. You cannot make more than what the market says you are worth. Not for long at least.
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Let me see
Im 61 now and in all honesty I havent had to work for a living in 35 years, I get paid pretty good money to do the thing I really really enjoy.
They even come up with new ways for me to entertain my brain. I dont see that stopping soon.
Yes I know I could have gone independent and raked in lots more £$ but that is not my motivation, as long as I have enough for my needs and wants and have something fun to occupy me, Im happy.
I get to learn on the job and make a difference. I work with great and talented people, from where I sit, Ive got it made.
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g_p_l wrote: Yes I know I could have gone independent and raked in lots more £$ but that is not my motivation, as long as I have enough for my needs and wants and have something fun to occupy me, Im happy.
My feelings exactly!
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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I don't care about money any more than I have to. I've never pursued it. I pursue coding for its own sake. The money is so I can afford to do it more. That's all.
Everything is either a labor of love, or something I feel helps someone.
At one point in my career I realized that the only way to keep coding was to ask what I was worth, so I had to learn what that was.
I was young and the answer shocked me at first.
So I'm probably not the best person to ask.
I'm one of the luckiest people in the industry though, because I barely actually "work" - I get paid to play.
Real programmers use butterflies
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virang_21 wrote: how do you manage getting $$$ amount that align to your skill set.
If I were to ask for the $$$ that align with my skill set, I would never find a job.
Instead, I look at what I need, what the market for the region typically pays for the position, and what I'm offered. At the end of the day, if (whatImOffered > whatINeed + painFactor) then I'm happy.
painFactor is for the mitigating circumstances: commute time, crappy environment, crappy development rig, outdated tooling, excessive management, excessive processes, other developers are not anywhere near my skill level, etc.
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