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"Fourth of July" is a bad example. We don't normally swap in a holiday name in place of the date. Using your date, however, the date, when fully enunciated, is "July Fourth Seventeen Seventy Six" and the reverse is rarely if used at all.
The ambiguity however is in date formatting for non-technical usage (else, YYYYMMDD). That being said, the ambiguity would really exist in a local wherein the common idiom is in one order and the written version reverses that order. Jumping on the bandwagon to accommodate languages that use a reverse word order - why ? There is no ambiguity here - except for the (in our point of view) those who do it backwards elsewhere.
I haven't spent enough time in Canada to know the common speech version. Perhaps this written format is a manifestation of yet another concession to Quebec ?
What could be less ambiguous than to write something the same way it is said?
We are on the proper side of the Atlantic - the "New World". Let the old world continue to fester in their traditions and take a fresh breath!
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: We are on the proper side of the Atlantic - the "New World". Let the old world continue to fester in their traditions and take a fresh breath!
I draw your attention to the fact that the Monroe Doctrine appears to have lapsed.
As long as nations in the "New World" and the "Old World" trade, there will be a need for agreed weights and measures and agreed methods of representing them. In most modern languages*, units are typically written in decreasing order of size (5 dollars and 21 cents = $5.21; 4 pounds, 3 shillings, and 9 pence = £4 3s 9d; 5 yards, 2 feet, and 4 inches = 5yd 2' 4"), the only exception being time. This alone makes the non-ISO 8601 formats suspect.
* I'm told that in Arabic numbers are written from the digits up - one and twenty and three hundred.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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First problem to address: French - cannot count to seventy in any rational manner. Arabic looks good at that point. Besides, aren't we taught arithmetic operations least-to-most significant digits?
The unit argument you use would be good except for one thing: Dates are Labels ! For most common usage, I haven't heard about anyone in any date format using fractional months (for example). I mean, really, months vary in length and the full day labels include one of seven flavors. For that matter, the date is different in different parts of the globe (Greenwich is not the center of the universe). Noon happens when the sun's high.
But perhaps your current date is April 63/4, 2021 or 6.75 April 2021 ?
(or 25 Nisan 5781)
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: (or 25 Nisan 5781)
24 Μάρτιος, 7529 έτος κόσμου 
Seriously, either arrangement - little-endian ([day fraction], day, month, year) or big-endian (year, month, day, [day fraction]) would be OK. What I object to is the "mixed-endian" representation used in the US. It is inconsistent with the way we (including the USians) represent all other measurements.
[day fraction] stands for any method of representing a day fraction, whether a [decimal fraction], [hour, minute, second], or [second, minute, hour].
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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I shall repeat: it is not a measurement - it is a label.
Day number, perhaps as a fraction of the year - that is a measurement. Time of day, too.
Date? Nope.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Time is a label, and not a measurement?
It is an imperfect measurement since days of old.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Notable is that in Japan they use the big endian format for Addresses.
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You are on the Left (not proper) side of the Atlantic but still drive on the wrong side of the road.
The "old" world civilisation clearly came before the "new" world civilization so should take precedence. Obviously when one says "4th of July, 1775" then the date should be 04/07/1775, as you USians say, duh!
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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� Forogar � wrote: The "old" world civilisation clearly came before the "new" world civilization so should take precedence.
If this were consistently applied, we would today be in year 10279 of Xyzzy the Volcano Goddess, or some such. The question before the group is standardization; given that we must communicate and trade globally, it must be possible to unambiguously express numerical values such as dates.
My personal preference is that all values be expressed in "big-endian" unit format - from largest unit to smallest. "little endian" would also be acceptable. What I object to is the USian special case of "middle-endian" for dates, and no other values.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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� Forogar � wrote: ou are on the Left (not proper) side of the Atlantic but still drive on the wrong side of the road.
As usual, completely wrong on all counts.
Old coming first has precedence? Well, that makes you a charter member of Luddites, United. The "Old World" is called just that for a reason: tired old inbred monarchies, dying languages (like French), class-based society and food I'd not give to a stray dog, etc.
And the resistance to change - as in a little diversity to the gene pool (q.v., UK Royal Family)? Well, according to the news reports, Oprah apparently got a first-person account of how the Old World fixes things. I guess they want to go back to ugly.
I mean, really. The whole damn place is shot.
Begs the question: why did you sample lots of Europe and settle in Maryland? Probably to feast the Big Macs!
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Quote: Probably to feast the Big Macs!
That's never going to happen. McDonald's was a nice little burger place until the corporate criminal got involved and this is probably a metaphor for all that is wrong with the US today.
However, since politics is frowned upon here I will avoid any further escalation of your deluded ranting! 
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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I'll repeat a question for you:
You seemed to have traveled and lived in various locations in Far-Western-Asia (a/k/a Europe) and yet now you have settled down to live in Maryland, USA. But just about all of your posts that say anything about the USA are negative. WTF do you stay?
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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There lies the big misconception most people have. The reality is that McDonald's is a real estate investment company, that just happens to also sell burgers on their properties.
Money makes the world go round ... but documentation moves the money.
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: tired old inbred monarchies,
Yup, true.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: dying languages (like French)
Not a monarchy, nor a dying language. Don't forget that lots of Afrikans speak French, as do some carribean parts.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: Oprah apparently got a first-person account of how the Old World fixes things. I guess they want to go back to ugly.
I mean, really. The whole damn place is shot.
I don't watch Oprah, no idea what you talking about. And yes; things getting ugly, we not supposed to be united like the US is. I hope we reverse that mistake soon, but don't expect that to happen; too many paychecks depend on unity.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: Begs the question: why did you sample lots of Europe and settle in Maryland?
All of the US gives you a taste of Europe. Americans were built of European rejects. Prisoners and the like. The "new world" is one of criminals of the old one.
That's just history. Documented history.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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French = dying language. They wouldn't need to basically have language police and fine publsihers/etc. for using a non-french word if the french equivalent exists. They know it peaked perhaps a century ago (like par avion for air mail when that existed) - but it's done. Replace by a language that accepts the diversity of its users and grows and enriches itself. (care to guess which one?).
I don't watch Oprah but it was all over the news and everyplace else how their (former) prince (now living in California) was admonished about having children with his wife - they might not be white enough.
Your mixing the US with Australia in terms of a target for criminals. The US was settled by, all things considered, opportunists.
Some because they were unwelcome in Europe (like the Pilgrims), others because they had no future in Europe (class systems, monarchies - no chance at land of ones own). Some were indentured servants (enslaved whites because of debt). My Grandfather, escaping that tired old "continent" and entering as an illegal alien through Canada. Others brought, in later generations, as slaves. Some may have committed actual crimes (I'd bet on it) - and others, their crime was being the wrong religion. Quite a mixed multitude. Australia, being basically as far from England as you can get, was a great place to get rid of undesirables.
Along the way, as often as not, those already here thought it in their interest to not let anyone else in that didn't meet their standards (typically white/protestants).
Most importantly - for a long time - no long standing traditions to block progress !
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: French = dying language. They wouldn't need to basically have language police and fine publsihers/etc. for using a non-french word if the french equivalent exists.
 Germans don't need that; they'll make up a new German word if only an English one exists.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: I don't watch Oprah but it was all over the news and everyplace else how their (former) prince (now living in California) was admonished about having children with his wife - they might not be white enough.
Never heard of it, but I'll take your word for it.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: was a great place to get rid of undesirables.
That was a bit later. A large part of our navy was built on criminals. They were expendable, and a ship would always come back with less crew than it started with. Long voyages, and no one knew what vitamine C was.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: Along the way, as often as not, those already here thought it in their interest to not let anyone else in that didn't meet their standards (typically white/protestants).
The Netherlands is built on protestantism, and I happen to live in the Catholic part of it.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Inventing a new words (Germans) is quite alright - although they do adapt when convenient - but what they didn't do was to criminalize use of a foreign (read that English) word. That delight is found only in French speaking locals (Frogland, itself and Quebec).
As for who was first settled in Australia, see the second paragraph[^]. I love their national anthem (Waltzing Matilda) - unofficially. It shows a heart of not taking yourself too seriously. As for Vitamin C - it wasn't identified but was implicitly understood: Quote: The disease was shown to be prevented by citrus fruit in an early controlled trial by a Royal Navy surgeon, James Lind, in 1747, and from 1796 lemon juice was issued to all Royal Navy crewmen
- hence the term "Limeys" for British sailors.
Interestingly, the Pilgrims, of whom many Americans are so proud and are featured in the Thanksgiving lore, were a bunch of lousy intolerant bastards. More or less calvinists, their version of christianity made them rather unpleasant (i.e., labeled sepratists in England) and they left d for . . . the Netherlands. From their, where calvanism was more tolerated they left for 'the new world" and brought their intolerance with them. The state of Rhode Island was founded by Roger Williams, with the design to be religious tolerance, as he was driven out by the Pilgrims. Somewhat similarly, William Penn established Pennsylvania. In his case, he was a Quaker and the name was not his ego but demanded by the king who gave him the land for the state (as though it was his to give). It, too, was a place for religious freedom (note that this freedom often only extended to various versions of christianity). The point being, those Pilgrims left for religious freedoms which they denied to all others - perhaps the criminals to whom you refer !
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: Inventing a new words (Germans) is quite alright - although they do adapt when convenient - but what they didn't do was to criminalize use of a foreign (read that English) word. That delight is found only in French speaking locals (Frogland, itself and Quebec).
They don't criminalize, and need not to; The French are more cultures than French. And Germans hardly adapt. My favourite is "gabelstaplerfahrer". You need a "gabelstaplerfahrer führerschein" to do so.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: in 1747
By then the Dutch had their golden era. Think 1600'ds.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: The point being, those Pilgrims left for religious freedoms which they denied to all others - perhaps the criminals to whom you refer !
Mayhaps I the criminal, as I see most deads from being religious. And all those, would help their neighbour, regardless of religion, because they identify as a tribe.
The protestant and catholic Dutch hid their neighbour Jews (or acquintances), feeling a tribe during WW2.
People in small doses are benevolent, welcoming, sharing. Countries full of them are rules by idiot ideas of being superiour, or being attacked by "families", or having taking sh*t away. It's madness of masses, but no indidual holds those values if you meet them. I had Arab diners, but did not meet a jew here yet. Met Chinese. Met Scandinavians. Met a Dutch person living in the Carribean. Different in customs, yes, but not in wants.
We are being played; always have been. Ever since the Pax Romana.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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In military terms (my theme for the day), my advice for him would be: Suck it up! 
Do they still say "RDAH"?
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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Worth noting on that subject is that the US military use the "dd mmm yyyy" format
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The answer is ALWAYS to compromise and keep everyone somewhat happy. Therefore, I propose dm\dm\yyyy.
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And MM/DD/YYYY doesn't sort lexically either.
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Dean Hawthorne 2021 wrote: And MM/DD/YYYY doesn't sort lexically either.
I, for one, admitted that right off the top.
There's no advantage of mm/dd over dd/mm, or vis-versa, except for the obvious one: it should reflect the way people speak.
In science and business - yyyymmdd is the rational solution because sorting (for example) is needed without ridiculous accommodations (such as in code).
The key here is to realize writing, deep down inside, is a way to represent speech and transfer ideas. Smoothly. For the people with whom one is in contact with pretty much all the time. The smoother and more convenient it/they is/are for this purpose the better.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I just use ISO 8601 UTC date/time for technical communication and in the cases the date/time should be stored as a string - when stored as a date (without time zone information), I store it as UTC.
For display, I just use the settings of the user - show it in his/her format and time zone.
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Yes! I even write ISO 8601 format on personal correspondence, check (yes, checks!), etc.
But I still have to deal with files at work that come in MM-dd-yy format - yes, using dashes "-" instead of slashes, and others that are dd-MM-yy, so it's ambiguous when read in context for various countries.
Hello all specification authors! Don't invent a new format! Just Don't! I've never seen anyone get confused reading ISO 8601 format
<rant_mode off />
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