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GuyThiebaut wrote: The Lounge does seem to have become the Soapbox.
It's not quite as bad as the Soapbox used to be, but I agree - since the Soapbox was closed, some of the debates seem to have migrated here.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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You're right, I am exaggerating it's not as bad as the soapbox could be.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Come join us over at the Cube Earth society. Much agreement in that group.
Just be careful not to go over one of the edges! 
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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Hang on a minute...
The Earth is not a cube it's flat!
Oh no, what have I started now? 
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Perhaps we should move this to the soapbox. Oh, wait...
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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The earth is a toroid - basically a giant doughnut waiting to be eaten by a fat giant deity long since dismissed as non-existent. Pray he doesn't dunk, first.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I suppose you can have your opinion but I really don't equate listening to experts in the field and their opinions (even if they evolve - which is part of real science as new facts surface).
That it became a partisan issue is beyond insane. There are the full-blown anti-vaxxer's and I consider them as freeloaders on the rest of us. But aside from them, the argument over vaccine efficacy and safety was initially screwed by a politician and the legacy continues.
It's almost religious in nature with respect to following science or wishful thinking. This, in fact, refers back to the first paragraph: science evolves with the facts - religion generally does not by definition of the concept of "faith")
Once again I find Forest Gump enlightening with "Stupid Is as Stupid Does".
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Science constantly adapts to incorporate the latest findings, or at least it should. Every age thinks it has found incontrovertible truths, particularly when touted as "science". Skeptics are then derided as "science deniers". There used to be alchemy, phrenology, eugenics, and a raft of other things now dismissed as claptrap. Science has also been politicized since at least Galileo. Things that challenge the rulers are suppressed, and this continues today with so much science being funded by the state. If you want to put your faith whatever is currently being called The Truth, and attack anyone that even hints at questioning it, may your echo chamber not reverberate too loudly and keep you from your sleep.
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Well, it's the best we've got at the time. If it were so dubious why do you trust your keyboard and computer and all the rest.
Picking and choosing, particularly in fields where one's expertise is "questionable" is not going to be justified by a tome that effectively shows things are getting better.
Greg Utas wrote: things that challenge the rulers are suppressed,
If ever there was a sign of ripeness for conspiracy theories, that statement is it. Not that it's never been true - but, again, it justifies nothing - yet another "straw-man".
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I trust my computer and other things from first-hand experience.
What I'm told by state apparatchiks and politicians, I take with a healthy dose of skepticism. They simply lie and spin things too often. It's not really a question of choosing what science to believe, but whom to believe. There isn't time to properly investigate everything oneself, so that's what it often reverts to.
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Greg Utas wrote: so that's what it often reverts to.
So you only accept what you have personally experienced.
In case of serious accident or injury, I suppose that applies to medical care, too? I mean, you may not have ever undergone surgery. How can you possibly believe it's real?*
Relying on "first hand experience" is going to limit you life's horizons to an extraordinary degree!
Option (2) - you don't actually mean the first-hand experience things and therefore pick and choose through personal preferences for reality and and "gut feelings".
Option (3) ? ? ? .
* Why in the world would you believe arsenic is deadly or heroine is addictive?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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"What it reverts to" means deciding whom to trust in the absence of first-hand experience. That's something we all have to do often. Politicians and apparatchiks are near the bottom of my list for whom to trust, whereas your list seems to be ranked a little different.
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Greg Utas wrote: apparatchiks
and all that goes with it.
Here (in US) we have a two-party system and now, more than ever before, hate one another. And then we also have the real civil service (non-appointees) who's jobs are protected by OPM (office of personnel management). That system is why Trump couldn't fire Faucci. He was civil-service.
In fact, we have a thing called The Hatch Act (which Ronald Reagan tried to get rid of). It forbids a civil service employee from taking part in partisan politics: they can lose their position. That means they cannot be threatened into it or risk their jobs. Rather clever, actually. They may take part in non-partisan concerns (Save the Whales or Rebuild America's Highways, for example). And they can vote how they please - but they may not campaign for any political party.
Perhaps your experiences are different - especially with that Soviet Era (and current Russia?) reference. Unlike the police or medical professionals, real scientists wash their dirty laundry in public - and fortunately, as it is science, the right answer can (eventually) be proven (or, if you wish to be strict, the wrong answer can be disproven).
Maybe it's different in your piece of the world.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I lived in the US for 15 years, and what you're talking about is theory. Practice tends to be different. Witness the Constitution, which would be great hadn't it been gutted by SCOTUS lapdogs going back a long way. I write apparatchiks because state employees are pretty much the same the world over, very reluctant to contradict the government's narrative.
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Comrade Utas, we've crossed well past the limits of Lounge.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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It's really more that I would prefer simply the truth - the vaccine protects you from serious illness or death, but we're still going to have to wear masks and socially distance because the vaccine doesn't prevent you from spreading the virus to others.
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So far as is know, correct. Hence my dropping some of the more draconian measures (aging mail and sanitizing food packaging by various means from hypochlorite to sitting around in a bag for a few days).
The latest CDC announcement, no doubt you have or will shortly hear, is that people who have all been vaccinated can gather mask-less (etc.) in indoor groups. In an imaginary world full of sane people, isn't that what we all wish to be able to safely do?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: aging mail and sanitizing food packaging by various means from hypochlorite to sitting around in a bag for a few days
Wow. We never had that suggested here in the US, AFAIK.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: is that people who have all been vaccinated can gather mask-less (etc.) in indoor groups
Yes, been reading that, waiting for the guidance to actually be approved.
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Specific implementation is based upon my background (chemistry) and common sense. Initially it was something I treated like the flu in terms of contagion: gotten from surfaces and rubbed into eyes. There wasn't much data to go on.
For sealed impervious containers (like juice, milk, etc.) we sprayed with a cleaner containing about 1 1/2% Sodium Hypochlorite (bleach) and cycled through the bunch of them (for a single trip) and rinsed them. This kills virtually anything (except, perhaps, prions) almost instantly. Dry and into the fridge.
Frozen food: bagged plastic got the bleach treatment but boxed couldn't withstand that. Instead, opened, slid contents out to a clean surface, and threw away the boxes.
Produce: things like berries in a vented box and such, along with boxed food that needed to be refrigerated but couldn't be sprayed or repackaged got the sanitizing wipe treatment. Produce without packaging - wiped down the outer package.
Finally, dry goods were just left to allow the virus to die. Several days, at least. Same for mail.
Once organized it was quickly routine and no big hassle to continue.
Again, I don't think like other people (good for a laugh if you post carefully!). Although direct data wasn't available for COVID I checked about its lifetime on surfaces at room temp vs. refrigerated vs. frozen. It may die in hours to days at room temp but in a fridge it could easily extend (as a virus) to a week or longer. Frozen - not clear answer: preservation vs. disruption. Err towards cautin. Cleaning doornobs? Hardly because ours are brass and they kill virus' rather quickly (as does copper). Also, with no visitors, what's to clean?
The implication about getting COVID from surfaces was heavily downplayed. They conventional wisdom is that it was airborne and surface transmission wasn't a serious problem. Just keep your hands off your face - except I'm a veteran eye-rubber.
So all the cleaning and waiting will fall by the wayside on or about March 22nd. Same for gloves when going out to shop. Masks, however, in place, when in public - I am my brothers' keeper.
(too much detail but we made it this far)
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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This just in (my inbox) CDC Guidance (via Medscape):
According to the new guidance, people who are at least 2 weeks out from their last dose can:
- Visit with other fully vaccinated people indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing.
- Visit with unvaccinated people from a single household who are at low risk for severe COVID-19 disease indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing
- Avoid quarantine and testing following exposure to someone if they remain asymptomatic.
Along with this:
However, there are still restrictions that will remain until further data is collected. Those who are fully vaccinated must still:
- Wear masks and physically distance in public settings and around people at high risk for severe disease.
- Wear masks and physically distance when visiting unvaccinated people from more than one household.
- Avoid medium- and large-sized gatherings.
- Avoid travel.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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It's like your warning labels, it's for your lawyers. He has to say it.
In reality it's about probability.
The probability that the vaccine is working is 90-95%.
So that's a 90-95% lowered risk of getting sick at all. And if you get sick it's a 90-95% lower risk of getting hospitalized.
You also have a 90-95% lower risk of spreading it to other people.
But it's not 0! And this is the point. Until the spread in society has gone down there's still a risk.
So stay with the measures until a majority has been vaccinated. That'll happen soon enough.
Also, you're a logical person, you should get this.
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Jörgen Andersson wrote: Also, you're a logical person, you should get this.
That, my friend, is part of the tragedy of our times.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Jörgen Andersson wrote: It's like your warning labels, it's for your lawyers. He has to say it.
Well, a law was passed the eliminates any liability by vaccine producers, so no lawyers need to get involved. 
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So. Someone else has to take the responsibility instead. I guess the state. That makes the statrment even more important. For the state.
Lawyers will find a way to involve themselves.
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