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Quote: I have frequently at past 40 age (52) coded 2 or 3, 20year olds into the ground.
That's not the question. The question is: would the 52 years old you code into the ground the 30 years old you?
Mircea
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quite possibly. I remember working as a 28 year old with a guy who was 50 something. I learned so much from Ron. and he got his crap done and then went home. and I was still struggling. So yes I believe an experienced 50 year old could be 30 year old Rod.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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Good for you in this case!
In my case, at a point I realized the 30 years old me would run circles around the 60 years old me. I was working for a very good guy/company so I thought I cannot in good conscience ask for a raise. Also, other things outside my work became very important and I decided to draw a line.
Each one has a different path but I still believe age is a difficult obstacle to overcome for professional programmers.
Mircea
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It might be true when it comes to standard work, but then you run into an unexpected design issue.
Seems to happen every day with my current contract. The younger developers are grinding through their tasks, and I am taking a bit longer. But then they come across an application using some technology new to them, such as writing an installer in WIX, and get stuck in how to proceed. They know that they can ask me for my help and experience, especially as I have worked with installer tech and WIX for over 10 years.
This is where we older developers shine - we have that experience with many different technologies if we took the time over the years to keep learning.
I should also mention that while these younger developers are whipping through their work, I am taking the time to understand the context of the code I am working on, cleaning up stranded code, searching for security vulnerabilities in outdated packages, and other similar cleanup work. I like to leave a project in better shape than when I found it....
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As I said, we all have different paths and, for sure, different brains so I'm not going to argue too much.
Quote: This is where we older developers shine - we have that experience with many different technologies if we took the time over the years to keep learning.
Agreed. We can be very useful to help the younger ones but what I was talking about was coding.
Don't know about others, but me, when I look at code I wrote when I was 30-35 years old, I'm in awe how nice and clean it is; tight, everything fits, no loose ends. I long for the time when I would go through a 300 pages API in an afternoon and then know it. Not just knowing that something exists but actually knowing the API calls and parameters and all. Those were the good days and I feel grateful I had the chance to enjoy them.
I just feel that now it's the time to move aside and eventually try to pass some of that experience to those who come behind.
Thos who can, do. Those who cannot, teach. Those who cannot do and cannot teach, manage. 
Mircea
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Younger people are more likely to work 80+ hours a week and only expect to be paid for 40.
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They compensate experience with resiliency
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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The youngsters may spend a day fixing a bug and write a couple hundred lines of code. An experienced developer will spend the time and fix the one line, and remove 50 lines of dead code, leaving things better than they were.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."
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Older developers have wives and lives, and aren't as willing to work 60+ hour weeks.
Older developers are a lot more skilled, and demand higher salaries.
Older developers typically have lower tolerance for corporate absurdity.
Older developers are less receptive to "change for the sake of change", and would rather wring every last drop of usefulness out of "legacy" APIs than inject new untested code into the main project branch.
Older developers are often viewed as rude and opinionated, when in fact, they're just being pragmatic. Most managers can't even spell "pragmatic".
So yeah, it's harder for older developers to find work.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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 to all your points
"I didn't mention the bats - he'd see them soon enough" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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Older developers are closer to retirement and can't be bothered to play the game anymore. 
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#realJSOP wrote: Older developers are a lot more skilled, and demand higher salaries.
As a generalisation that may be true. However there comes a point where a good developer is in it more for the kicks than the money. If they're coding because they can, because it's part of their lifestyle, because they enjoy it; and the mortgage is paid, the kids have left home, they can afford to pick the work they want to do and may not be so fussed about the hourly rate. And underlying all the above comments about productivity, is value-for-money. If someone is working smarter not harder, they're giving more bang for the buck.
Speaking personally, and addressing the OP's actual question: no, I'm finding it easier to acquire work the older I get. Note I say "acquire" not "find", because I haven't looked for work in years; work looks for me, and if I like it, I take it. (Though no actual new clients for a few years now, by choice!)
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DerekT-P wrote: Speaking personally, and addressing the OP's actual question: no, I'm finding it easier to acquire work the older I get. Note I say "acquire" not "find", because I haven't looked for work in years; work looks for me, and if I like it, I take it. (Though no actual new clients for a few years now, by choice!)
It reads that you are freelancing / working on your own. In this case and with a strong portfolio... yes.
But the OP is speaking about being employee and looking for another job in a company. That's totally different, and age might be a disadvantage
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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You have to find an "old" company owner. And I stress "owner". You'll never get past HR or the "we're a young company" manager types.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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Experienced developers are not fresh noobs out of school with a great resume. They have or should have developed a network.
If an older developer is doing battle with HR, they've picked the wrong battle.
+5 to everything John said. An older developer cannot play the same game as some 20 something.
The op needs to think more outside of the box and not play the corporate game. Right now, I'm looking for a FORTRAN person who can help migrate / rewrite an application into the 21st century. But that means I get nothing but expensive old farts  like me.
As for cognitive ability, I declare BS for that argument. The issue is so much larger as others have commented. Our industry is very, very broad. Being fast with an elegant solution to the wrong problem (and I've seen a lot of those for you whiz kids) means I just make more $$ being happy to help.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I was never part of any "old boys' network" ... and I would never join a group that would have me as a member.
And since it's against the law to ask for your age, the "battle" as you call it, only starts in the interview when you show up in a suit and they're wearing a t-shirt ... and yeah, I check the "company profile".
Anyway, for the last 20 years all my work has been remote where I didn't have to submit a "picture".
As for your "FORTRAN" requirement, that's a useless specification if one also has to know about mass equilibrium calculations or petrochemical fracturing. You need a better "job description".
As for the $, my rate varies with the skill the job requires.
It's your "general attitude", that slots all of us "old guys", that is part of the problem.
"Old fart" is right.
(And who is "John"?)
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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If the application were that special, I would agree. I've been looking for someone who can read and understand what a statement does. For me, trying to swap from FORTRAN source to C++ can make my head hurt from time to time.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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So you're saying that because the application "is not that special", it's OK to post a vague job description, and thereby compounding the problem ... and wasting the time of applicants in the process; I can think of no bigger sin.
I don't believe in a canned resume. I study what the job requires, and write an "application" that targets the job (and company).
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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No I'm not doing that all ffs. You people need to lay off the caffeine and stop jumping ravines to reach conclusions.
If you were actually able to maintain context - or just read the previous few posts, you would see that the system I am speaking of is NOT what other poster inferred. Since you don't know the first elephanting thing about the system I've worked with for 20 years, bugger off.
I've tried youngsters who want $$ but aren't willing to learn what the project requires. They don't see ooo shiny, off they go. But we're talking about older developers getting work. There's that context thing coming back...
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
modified 19-Feb-21 16:18pm.
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And what is also despicable (as an "employer"):
"I have a number in mind, guess what it is; and if you guess wrong ...".
I have yours.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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It's all sales.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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A job is worth what it is. Hoping they'll underbid is taking advantage. Nice way to start an employer-employee relationship.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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The guy who I've worked with for 35 years said something that has always stuck with me:
"When negotiating, it is very important that both parties leave satisfied."
Otherwise bad business. The problem with engineers, coders, and techies is that most have no experience here. And companies take advantage. Brutally. I'd almost think universities would require a couple of classes...
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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When you have a range in mind, and don't say what it is, you're wasting everyone's time.
"Negotiating" involves knowing the parameters. If you meet the minimum, expect the minimum, not less because you underbid yourself; that will only create resentment.
And if one knows the maximum, and doesn't like it, don't apply ... so "bitching" that they want "too much" doesn't even come into play.
But some people like playing games and jerking others around.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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What is wrong with you? Did you miss the smiley?
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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