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Member 14971499 wrote: Because if I get kicked out of the school and can't program either, than it's over for me
No, it isn't. You can always learn on your own, not necessarily in college.
But having the degree helps to get your first job, so concentrate in passing your exams with the best mark you can get without risking your mental health.
Once you get out and get into the real world you will have to learn many things again, because the "academical" programming and the "real-world" programming not always are that similar.
Companies are not dumb, if they hire you as a junior developer they won't expect you to be a DevOps or any guru knowing 10 different techonlogies and being able to write an App in a day.
Don't stress too much for the whole future, just go one step after another, and right now, you are in college.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Thanks  That was encouraging.
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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I got myself a PhD in Computer Science back when punch cards and magnetic tapes were the norm. It is almost totally out of date as far as languages and hardware is concerned but every now and then I use techniques I learned which are still applicable to do the job these days. Almost all my skills have come from "on the job learning" through necessity and relevance at the time. This is the norm these days and I think, just my opinion, that constantly studying for various bits of paper with letters on them is mostly misdirected effort. However, I already have the 40 years of experience that makes me eminently eligible for employment as a senior developer, no one looks for paper qualifications when I have applied for jobs in the last 10 to 20 years; but to get that first position, maybe you need some. I don't know where I am going with this and have lost track of the point I wanted to make ...but you don't have to learn stuff just because it is new and fashionable. Solid skills in keys areas should normally be enough. For example, if you know JavaScript and jQuery you don't necessarily have to learn React or all the dozens of other fly-by-night frameworks.
Good luck anyway, being keen on programming is the most important thing.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Thank's for advice  Yeah, I think I want to learn too many things at the same time out of fear that I'm not going to get a job 
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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Member 14971499 wrote: Yeah, I think I want to learn too many things at the same time out of fear
And that's exactly what might trigger exactly that result.
My father always told me... the more you envelope, the less you squeeze.
A.k.a. if you try to do many things at the same time, you won't do anyone properly. Focus on what you have to do now, and leave the rest for later. You will have plenty of time to learn what is not in your subjects.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Quote: Focus on what you have to do now, and leave the rest for later.
I agree completely.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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The problem can be solved by going to the mirror and staring it in the face.
One of the things about growing up is learning to take control of your life (in so far as possible) and that include not only washing and feeding yourself but finding what things give you pleasure.
One of the pleasures I'd hope you had learned is that, no matter how much you enjoy something you need other things if, for no other reason, than to look forward to getting back to them.
You can make your own prisons - that's the easy way out.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Thank's for the reply You have a good point.
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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Member 14971499 wrote: I feel also this constant pressure to learn things above the school curriculum to stay relevant on the market because I don't feel like I'm going to be able to do my job after I get my degree
The first thing I learned after graduating is that no matter what is taught, the world will have moved on. It's really the nature of this field. And yet here I am, over a quarter of a century later, still doing it and learning new stuff as I go along.
Don't tell yourself you have to know everything to succeed in this field. Learn what they're teaching, but perhaps more importantly "learn how to learn". As someone who's been asked to review resumes and conduct interviews (as much as I hate that) I don't even want to talk to someone fresh out of school who tries his best to know it all - that just won't fly. Rather, if you can demonstrate you know the basics that are expected, and you can learn and adapt, you're in a much better position than burning yourself out before you've even started.
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Thank's for your reply
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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When you realize that all this stuff was made up by other people, and some at least not as smart as you, it gets easier.
Study smarter, not harder. Take any subject, of the 20 or so books on the subject, only a few are worth picking up (if at all). That goes for videos and tutorials.
You have to be discriminating. Even the books that get assigned can be shite ... just remember to parrot what the prof says (whether you agree or not) while "learning".
And you don't have to "learn" it all ... The best skill is knowing how to "find" it, when you need it. (Most of ones that frequent Q&A never got that part ... or just lazy / entitled)
The biggest fail of the system is "closed book exams" IMO; unless you work in ER or crashing a plane. Closed books is not reality.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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Thank's for your reply I will keep your advices in mind
Gerry Schmitz wrote: The biggest fail of the system is "closed book exams" IMO; unless you work in ER or crashing a plane
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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Member - suck it up.
I mean that in an encouraging way. You are in school and they are trying to wash you out. When I started I had 300+ in my class, 52 graduated in 4 years.
Suck it up. You do have *no* life. Focus on the prize. The skills when the python virtuoso has no idea how to code up a line. Don't worry about it. Been in the business 40 years. Seen them flaming out - they look pretty in the sky 
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
modified 16-Feb-21 23:24pm.
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charlieg wrote: When I started I had 300+ in my class, 52 graduated in 4 years.
 Wow...
I'm lucky that my college is much more forgiving. Besides, you had to be really skilled to be among those 52.
charlieg wrote: The skills when the python virtuoso has no idea how to code up a line.
hahaha 
charlieg wrote: Don't worry about it. Been in the business 40 years.
Wow, that is really long time Thank's for encouragment
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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Short answer is NO.
Long answer is NO, we don't have a life, we are always facing our bosses' whims and extendin our job time due to their continuous change of mind.
Sorry for that
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With the utmost respect, I'm gonna conclude your study technique is awful.
Try building a logical tree of topics for each knowledge domain, and for each topic, just focus on the constraints and limitations. Try to understand when something is not applicable, and ponder about what problem it does solve against a previous iteration. This will make the material 100x less dense to navigate.
Frankly, if you have to spend so much time each day studying you're clearly wasting your time. You could get better results if just sat down, thought about it, and discussed the topics with your peers in a respectful manner for an hour or so.
And, as a bonus, the pyhton-linux-ai-virtuoso is just following a guide that is applicable to his/her problem set. Knowing what information applies to which problem is the only skill you have to practice in this field. In contrast, knowing all the details about a single or more topics and being able to create novel solutions with that knowledge is.. not worth anything. There's no value in novel solutions. They don't scale, they're costly to maintain, and everything has been written already in a less novel but more sensible way.. if you could have just humbled yourself and took the time to look around more.
As a scholar, you invent novel approaches and test them for validity. As an engineer, you combine this information into a working prototype. As a professional, you add value and reduce cost. You're the engineer, so the course kinda expects you to engineer a solution to your own problems.
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I'm just trying to point out that being very talented in a specific sub-field of CS is economically worthless.
You need to understand the limitations of a sub field, preferably for many subfields. Preconceptions or preferences for a particular one makes you worse at CS, not better.
That's because the entirety of CS pivots around people who can understand the machines' limitations and the humans' desires, and a lot hinges on communication with the latter.
If you start out with the misconception that:
it has to be understood, memorized and applied I'm definitely not gonna hire you on my team. Maybe someone else will, but I'm not taking that risk.
If your goal is to be valuable as a developer, reconsider your approach and focus on searching / assimilating / communicating things you don't know yet.
As a reference:
I did 5 years of commercial R&D and I wrote drivers for embedded hardware in 3 different projects.
I also did custom work for esoteric DB stacks, IIOT and AR, just to name a few topics.
Not trying to criticize, just trying to help you find your way.
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Member 14971499 wrote:
This feeling that I have to reschool myself again and again to stay in this business makes me sick. I really enjoy programming and it seems like I have predispositions to do this job but I feel this software engineering is crazy (!) If I would study that much for example medical degree I already would be a doctor and at least I would know that I can do my job after these years of studying, and than go back home and read a book, meet with friends, have some time off.
i totally agree.
in our meeting room there comes a mathematics professor to teach lectures on a schedule that doesn't collide with our regular work. i sneak into the meeting room after those classes and look at the board. i see the same derivations, the same integrals, the same limits of the same functions from the time i was 4th grade high school or 1st year at college.
last week i said to the professor, i envy you. why? because your knowledge is firm. your subject, mathematics is non trivial. you teach, that also i always wanted to do. but most importantly mathematics is the same for everyone, even the gods must obey it. and as a bonus, it's logical.
once you learn it you can pass you knowledge to others without being affected by trivia. then in your spare time you can program, read a book, listen to music or go on a philosophical journey to a mountain top of say 3000m, nothing extreme.
in the past 3 project i have worked on:
3 programming languages changed: javascript, php, c#
3 programming environments changed: linux + geany + grep + node + mongo, windows on client + browser + php storm + linux on server + apache + mysql, windows + visual studio + unity + sqlite
3 version control system changed: git, svn, perforce... and god knows what else
some of this i love, to others i am indifferent, the rest i hate
and even the javascript i loved has changed so much that i would look foolish if would go straight to a programming interview
i started my first job as a programmer in 1998, but i was programming since at least 1985. i quite my job as a programmer around 2003, because i couldn't do the thing i loved on orders. 13 years i worked in a few firms and on many types of jobs. i never quit programming on my spare time. i decided to go in programming once more and this time for good. almost 5 years have passed since then. i still program at my spare time, because what i do at work is not interesting to me. it's just a regular job on the assembly line, no matter if it is somehow connected to php or c#... this time if i quit my job as a programmer it is going to be for good.
and it's not even programming. it is some kind of development with some software tools that are given at a particular time instance and that are always changing.
remember the bonus mathematics or physics has because it's mostly essence? you can forget about it in the so called programming. in the so called programming the essence is in books like Donald Knuth's, but what you will constantly get is some hipster way that is prevalent at the moment and the tools that accompany it.
sorry about this discouraging note, but if you love programming (whatever that may be for you, no matter how different from my idea) you should think about it. my advice is to get a knowledge job that cannot be supplanted by machines and in the spare time do some programming or reading.
although, you may be lucky as a programmer to end up in some large firm where not much is expected from you so you can learn what you like or take i new programming course on your own, but at your work time when nobody's watching. had happened to me once...
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Wow, that was very intresting to read  Not discouraging at all. I like when people are honest. Better to know that now than to be shocked later. I already heard that it is going to be that way and actually many years ago, when I was searching for jobs I have seen plenty of job postings for PHP-programmers. Like every job was for a PHP-programmer, but nowadays I barely see a jobpostings looking for a PHP-programmer. In those days I wanted to be a programmer but I thought: "No, I never gonna be able to learn this. Technology is changing too much" and now I study CS. So maybe I'm going to be able to stay in that field. Well, who know what the future brings?
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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and don't forget what others have said about the corona crisis, nobody has a life anymore compared to the 80's and 90's
also, whenever i worked i was 90% of the time in IT, i just wasn't a programmer.
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Yeah its true 
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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A few quick things to add:
* In general, I prefer to hire people with CS degrees for programming jobs because they have a broader CS background and better skills; however, some of the best programmers I know don't have CS degrees and one was entirely self taught. I also once recommended someone with a BS over someone with a MS in CS because the person with only the BS knew his stuff better. It's not the degree that counts, it's what you know and what you can do with it.
* I expect people I hire to have basic skills and hopefully know the language(s) we're using and some of the tools (depends on the level, for college hires, I only care about basic problem solving skills using any computer programming language that's a reasonable approximation to what I need - e.g. C++,C#, Java, JavaScript... I don't care which - but you'd better understand OOP).
* Most learning is on the job. No one ever knows the apps and systems they will be working on (unless they're a rehire, and that's VERY rare).
* There are a couple of times in my life where I felt behind, like I didn't know anything, and "everyone" else was an expert in some new technology I needed to learn. Instead of giving up, I dug in and started learning everything I could about it. A few months later I realized that I was now the expert and everyone was coming to me with questions in that technology. That's because only 10% or so of "everyone" were really experts, the other 90% were just muddling through, and it didn't take that much to pass them by.
* I've been doing this for over 40 years. I've spent the entire time learning and re-learning. The languages and tools and systems are completely different, yet the fundamental concepts remain the same, and I'm able to build on my strengths and do a better job and learn things quicker and faster because I have a strong base to build on. So, at least in that sense, it does get easier, but you need to never stop learning and expect to occasionally be overwhelmed...
* Doctors have to keep learning too. The medical industry is changing fast! In the medical industry they have Continuing Education Units and if you don't get enough of them you loose your license.
* These days, everything is about programming. Even if you don't finish your CS degree you can go into any other field and probably leverage a lot of your programming skills to give yourself a leg up and be more efficient/effective than those around you. (Sometimes I wish I'd done just that ).
* [Good] Employers expect their people to be human beings and will work with them to help them learn and grow and balance life. If they won't, find a new employer.
Best,
Dave
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I want to laugh at my own stupidity but it's true... I'm like Mr.Bean of software engineering haha 
They will not write the code for me 