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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: illusions about the intrinsic good in humanity
What intrinsic good?
Quote: ... for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth ...
(Genesis 8, 21)
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Careful ! You may get a flood of replies.
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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That's true. Abrahamic scripture holds that there are no true innocents, although at times it suggests that children are. I think the takeaway I get from it is children are *more* innocent but nobody is free from sin.
I'm not religious but I take an interest in this stuff.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Some children are innocent. Some are not.
I can testify to this after being the leader for my daughter's Girl Scout troop. Two of the girls (K and L) were sisters. K was a sociopath, and L was her weak-willed stooge. I learned to keep the two of them under a constant watch while we were doing activities. I felt sorry for them as their home life was not very good, and tried to make allowances based on that, but I felt an embarrassing amount of relief when they switched schools.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Yeah I'm not sure I know much about the capacity for children to commit evil generally. It's not a subject I've spent much time thinking about even, but I'm just reflecting on what scripture says. It's far more certain about these things than I will ever allow myself to be. Still, I find it interesting.
Real programmers use butterflies
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A FWIW thing:
At least in terms of religious teachings, children are not accountable for their sins until they reach effective adulthood. I couldn't say what the christian thinking on this is, except that in some circles they would consider a baby damned if it died before being baptized. I suppose that implies they're not even innocent at birth. Jews, on the other hand, hold the parents responsible for their "child's soul" until the age of majority (from ancient days, this was essentially puberty: 12 for girls, 13 for boys).
I'd be curious about some of the other religions, particularly the eastern ones, and how they weigh in on when you become responsible morally and ethically for your own deeds.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I don't disagree, but I'm not sure that's quite what I'm getting at. Even if a parent is responsible for a child's soul the question is is that child's soul truly innocent, or is the simply parent responsible for a child's potentially wicked acts regardless of the innocence of the child? Say you had a boy that tortured animals. Maybe the parent is on the hook for that socially which is part of what scripture speaks to - but wouldn't such an act, even under Judaism leave the child in need of some of that soul cleansing process that happens after death?
Real programmers use butterflies
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Soul-cleansing process.
Nothing like that actually in the bible - not even heaven or hell, let alone some sort of pergatory. Those are later construct to help keep the believers in-line (obedient and donating). No "devil", either. Even in the various books of prophets, Satan is an obedient servant of deity.
Interestingly, if you think about it, "Adam and Eve" did not sin when they ate that forbidden fruit from the "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" because they didn't know the difference between good and evil. On the other hand, religiously speaking, I am pretty certain the tree was put there specifically for them to eventually eat of its fruit. This expands into (obviously) quite a philosophical discussion. Suffice it to say, think of "creation" had they not eat that forbidden fruit: what would have happened? Answer: Nothing. Ever. Creation would have been over and prolonging it's existence would be pointless.
I think I've probably violated some sort of lounge rules but I'll make sure I don't make a fight out of this - the thing is, it's about faith - by definition, a thing without proof. My faith is no more provable than anyone else's - for if it were provable it wouldn't be faith.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I'm not talking about heaven and hell. With respect, this is what I am referring to: What Happens After Death? - Death & Mourning[^]
Also again, to be clear, I am not Jewish, nor Christian, nor even religious. I am simply interested in abrahamic scripture - for reasons.
My commentary isn't about my personal views on spirituality, the afterlife, or even the existence of souls. I am repeating the concepts outlined in scripture as I understand them, so I'm trying not to editorialize. Exegesis by nature makes that unavoidable, for better or worse, but I try to keep a lid on it.
I have several different takes on the Adam and Eve story, each possibly valid in its own situation, one them sounds very much like yours.
Real programmers use butterflies
modified 27-Nov-20 12:59pm.
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I ran off at the mouth keyboard, again. I was just noting that innocence and blamelessness do co-exisit in some philosophies, along with a definite conclusion where one is responsible for oneself. How can an infant do wrong? When does (accountable) sentience actually take hold?
I was just noting that there is no mention in "The Bible" of an afterlife - Ecclesiastes is a book (scroll, actually) and it was written by a person who was not even a prophet (Kohelet == King Solomon).
The Chabad group is, in a way, a very enlightened organization. Very orthodox yet very accepting - sending out emissaries throughout the world to try to set up a Jewish presence (i.e., move in, live there) for Jews in the area to be able to more easily maintain their identity - and never never never to proselytize. As I understand, unlike some other faiths, Judaism doesn't require one be a follower of their beliefs in order to "go to heaven". Funny, as they're the oldest of the "Abrahamic Religions" and apparently the most enlightened and accepting of those around them. Certainly in terms of live-and-let-live.
However, like everyone else, the have their extremists and fanatics. Just generally not as deadly as most others.
However - if you look for an afterlife then you're looking into later writings and really a hope (which I share as a hope). Back, again, to faith.
These discussions, when kept impersonal and philosophical, go well with good Scotch.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: However - if you look for an afterlife then you're looking into later writings and really a hope (which I share as a hope).
I'm not looking for an afterlife personally. This isn't about that, to be clear.
And I guess it depends on what you mean by later. The thing that led me to the torah was lurianic kabbalah which is circa the very late 16th century.
Again I'm not jewish or religious. I'm just fascinated.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Note on the Kabbalah: a friend of mine was what they call a 'cantor', which is an interesting latinesque term for a singer at communal (Jewish) religious services. He was, in fact, rather learned not only in the vocalization of the liturgy, but in law and literature (actually, except for an amazingly broad range of musical talents vocal and instrumental, limited, as well). He noted that the Kabbalah is anachronistic and is considered by many as a containing references to materials that were written after it was written.
Myself - it can be fascinating if I had a bent or need for complex spiritual constructs and mystical drawings. The reliance on numerology, however, which I find a detestable construct of human grasping for straws and grasping for the illusion of even the straws. You can screw around with anything, messing with the numerical algorithm of your choosing, to "prove" anything. Like "prove" having the same number of characters as "truth". I shall be seasonal and declare "humbug!".
The Jewish community has its fascination in that, with the exception of some fanatical groups (Satmar, for example), they have maintained an extraordinary grip on comping with and adapting to change. In particular, an enduring respect for knowledge and a desire for a better life for the next generation. A philosophy that far too many groups (religious, social, political) shun. Just count the Noble prizes vs. the tiny percent of the world's population they represent and you see the inter-generational value of a very great respect for education. Too much success, I'm afraid, always has its consequences if you are the penultimate minority.
Again, I deviate.
I still will add one more bit: the "big boss" who inspired my adaption of coding as abstractly as I can, in another discussion, noted the relative success of the Jews (he, an Italian catholic) is there ability to cope with exceptions. A consequence of religious philosophy or having been victimized so consistently, or a blend of the two? Something new to ponder
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: The reliance on numerology, however, which I find a detestable construct of human grasping for straws and grasping for the illusion of even the straws.
It sounds like you're talking about gametria here more than kabbalah
Yes there are significant numbers in kabbalah that correspond to things like the number of sephirot, or the 36 "hidden righteous" but that's not anything different than say, Jesus and his 12 disciples - beyond any of that and you're straying into gametria territory I think.
My first serious boyfriend was a jewish convert who later practiced buddhism in tandem. He was the most peaceful man I have ever known. I didn't understand how he could maintain both at the time, but when you start to understand the similarities between say, buddhist enlightenment and yechidah for example it starts to make sense.
Anyway, I should probably bow out of this as I've turned it may be too religious for the forum.
Real programmers use butterflies
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![Beer | [beer]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/beer.gif)
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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The Pentateuch does have quite a few cases where the sins of the fathers are visited on the sons, which contrasts with some other religions' view that each person starts with an empty slate. Still other religions (those that believe in reincarnation) believe that children do not start with an empty slate, but that the burden of 'sin' is still personal.
As a Jew, I must say that the first makes more sense to me. Judaism can only be fully practiced in a community, and therefore the obligations and agreements of the community, for good and for bad, get passed on to the new members. This does not mean that a child is personally liable for the sins of his forefathers, but does mean that the next generation is liable for the failings of the previous generation.
Compare and contrast with the modern idea of a nation. Later generations of a nation certainly are bound by the agreements made by earlier generations.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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That makes sense to me. How I've looked at the sins of the father dynamics is that because they *are* visited on the sons it makes the original sin that much worse.
See, I don't look at it primarily as a moral treatise, but as ancient sociology and a blueprint for how we operate as human beings, and from what I've seen the stories from which the mitzvot are derived are quite good predictive of human behavior, and that's what really caught me about The Torah and the old testament that is copied from it.
I've never discussed any of this with any rabbis as I have not really had access to a synagogue for the past few years, so I haven't had anyone I would trust with this stuff to bounce it off.
It all came to me through study and and yes, psychosis but even in that latter case, some of it stayed with me.
I've been endlessly fascinated with it since. I am not religious but I seriously considered converting.
I haven't for reasons which I won't get into on this forum. I'm trying to keep this about the texts and not about my personal feelings around faith and such but it's really hard to separate them in this arena.
I hope none of this offended anyone. I'm just being real with you, dear readers.
I probably could have a long and I would hope interesting discussion with you about (well at least me read of) The Torah and the old testament and this sort of tribalistic bent in scripture which i think can be extended to the idea of nation states but it wouldn't be something I'd really want to explore on this forum. Generational sin definitely enters into it and some of those prior agreements that were made are still burdening us.
Real programmers use butterflies
modified 28-Nov-20 12:23pm.
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No, this definitely is not the place for a discussion about religion. 
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Excellent! I have two. I think I won three but I gave them the wrong address once.
I love this site's contests.
Congratulations!
Real programmers use butterflies
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OriginalGriff wrote: everyone I had to sleep with
don't forget the sheep...
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Just check the pictures in his wallet . . .
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I am envious... I have none, and I don't think I will ever get one.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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When I am about to die, do I see a Silverlight at the end of the tunnel?
Or is it just the other way around?
Actually triggered by the fact that our servers must support stuff that even Microsoft wants to forget. 
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
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There is a Silverlight at the end of the tunnel only if it's an oncoming Microsoft Train Simulator.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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No, you see a Flash animation start, and then a message: "Your app is no longer supported," and then the blue-screen of death.
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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We'll probably never know: Covid vaccine maker AstraZeneca 'targeted by North Korean hackers'[^]
I'd like to think the former, but I suspect the latter given North Korea's record in cyber attacks. 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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