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 wonderful (the lyrics) !Quote: Just to watch these monitors spit white noise through your office space
Speaking of monitors: [^]
give an urchin a farthing, he'll keep starving,
give an urchin a chapeau, he'll be your aquarium's best beau
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
modified 25-Nov-20 5:28am.
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BillWoodruff wrote: cannot we [...] make program managers and corporate types our love-slaves ?
Can, it's probably debatable, but would you want to?
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BillWoodruff wrote: learn to make program managers and corporate types our love-slaves
How perverse. Who would want to have sex with invertebrates?
Software Zen: delete this;
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I'm looking for scientific articles on some questions I have about how mRNA vaccines work.
First, I've read (and it seems to be basic biology) that mRNA does not alter the DNA in your cell nucleus. Anything that contradicts that?
But the questions I can't find answers to:
1. What cells does the mRNA vaccine "infect"?
2. Does your body see these cells as "hostile" now and kills them off?
3. How long do your cells produce the proteins that the mRNA encodes for? In other words, what is the basic biology of how long mRNA continues producing proteins?
Any useful, non-conspiracy theory, links?
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This[^] was the article that first clued me in on how mRNA works. For me, this paragraph was the key.
From the article:
mRNA vaccines, in contrast, trick the body into producing some of the viral proteins itself. They work by using mRNA, or messenger RNA, which is the molecule that essentially puts DNA instructions into action. Inside a cell, mRNA is used as a template to build a protein. ‘An mRNA is basically like a pre-form of a protein and its (sequence encodes) what the protein is basically made of later on,’
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Yup, but beyond that, I'm clueless and want to be educated. 
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That answer did it for me, although maybe I'm too easily satisfied. 
The ribosomes in whichever cells the mRNA enters will assemble the protein for which it encodes (one that appears on the virus' outer surface, if I recall). This should train your immune system to attack that foreign protein, giving you protection against the virus. But the protection probably wears off eventually, at which time you'd need another mRNA injection.
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Pubmed is a reliable source
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Nature is a peer reviewed journal and is a go to source for me on stuff like this. I haven't looked for anything covid related - i already caught it anyway and am not into disaster pr0n so I try not to dwell on it but if i were to I'd start there.
They have lots of articles aside from the studies they publish and the articles can help you ask the right questions and know where to expand your hunt for info - that sort of thing.
Real programmers use butterflies
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There's a good one here[^]
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Never stop dreaming - Freddie Kruger
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For (2) you may want to read up on apoptosis which is the controlled process by which a cell dies.
One of the problems when looking into medical science is that you have to learn a whole new language.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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GuyThiebaut wrote: earn a whole new language.
This is the wikipedia entry in French:Mode d'action
La production d'antigène dans le cytosol de la cellule conduit, après clivage par des protéases, à présenter les épitopes de l'antigène au complexe majeur d'histocompatibilité de classe I, qui active l'immunité cellulaire, et au complexe majeur d'histocompatibilité de classe II, qui active l'immunité humorale31. Every single word of this sentence requires hours to understand what it is about.
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Yep, makes about as much sense to me as a Spanish speaking cow (French speakers will get the reference).
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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GuyThiebaut wrote: Spanish speaking cow (French speakers
Exactly how does one tell them apart?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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A French cow says meu [mø], but a Spanish cow says mu (the same as in English). 
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You missed my reference:
I was comparing the Spanish speaking cow to French speakers . . .
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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The cell of interest appears to be the "dendritic cell".
Quote: DCs play a central role in both innate and adaptive immune responses.
Acute SARS-CoV-2 Infection Impairs Dendritic Cell and T Cell Responses
Dendritic Cells and SARS-CoV-2 Infection: Still an Unclarified Connection
Quote: Finally, an additional point will merit investigation in the context of DC’s role in SARS-CoV-2 infection. In particular, the importance of the reported ability of estrogen to stimulate DC activity [106] needs explaining and clarifying as to why women appear less likely to die from Covid-19 than men.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
modified 24-Nov-20 10:12am.
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Wiki on mRNA[^] might help as an intro. As you’ve no doubt already read, the “central dogma” is DNA -> RNA -> protein. It’s more complicated than that, but as there is no virus itself involved, it “shouldn’t” be an issue here.
I couldn’t find any references suggesting what cells the current vaccines target, but as they’re just liposomes in the blood stream, I suspect white blood cells. And yeah, I imagine they’ll be targeted after expressing the spike protein.
For #3:
Quote: In mammalian cells, mRNA lifetimes range from several minutes to days.[25] The greater the stability of an mRNA the more protein may be produced from that mRNA.
Having said that, the mRNA used in the vaccines has one base replaced (with pseudouridine, I think),so that may affect the lifespan.
This also seems to be a good intro coverage article COVID-19 and mRNA Vaccines—First Large Test for a New Approach | Infectious Diseases | JAMA | JAMA Network[^]
TTFN - Kent
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Another really detailed article: https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/no-really-mrna-vaccines-are-not-going-to-affect-your-dna[^]
tl;dr (and hilariously formatted in the original): Quote: There is no feasible means by which an mRNA vaccine could end up in the nucleus of a cell, nor prime a reverse transcription reaction, nor give you a mitochondrial disease.
There is no reasonable possibility based on the totality of our knowledge of cell biology, reverse transcriptases, human genetics, and the immune system that mRNA vaccines can affect your DNA.
TTFN - Kent
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It's Medical Magic - that's all you really need to know.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Actually, the wikipedia article is quite good.
Marc Clifton wrote: Anything that contradicts that?
No.
Marc Clifton wrote: 1. What cells does the mRNA vaccine "infect"?
Cells that have been taken on someone or cultivated.
Marc Clifton wrote: 2. Does your body see these cells as "hostile" now and kills them off?
Yes. And it is "trained" to respond quickly to similar threats.
Marc Clifton wrote: what is the basic biology of how long mRNA continues producing proteins?
With time, the response is not forgotten but takes longer - there is no fixed values for this, and parameters that influence it can be multiple. The other problem is that the response does not necessarily fits all virus variants, which means a vaccine for variant A of the virus cannot necessary affect the same way a variant B.
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Vaccine or no vaccine, mRNA is essential hardware in the living organism (viruses are not alive and never were).
That statement precludes any misguided redirection through the use of ill-termed references to non-earth biological entities that might, if they actually existed, be caught up in the minds of 'ner-do-well pundits who call themselves experts, if not scientists, in fields such as epidemiology and genetics when they go on TV to say things that come off the tops of their heads without thinking about anything but the camera they sit before, about existential things like LIFE. And then apologize later for forgetting to begin their 15 minutes of fame by prefacing anything following (stuff in the future) with "viruses are not alive".
Vaccine? Why vaccine?
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If you want a comparison on how different vaccine candidates works, I find this tweetorial[^] in 138 parts(!) by Prof. Florian Krammer really good.
mRMA is described at part 50.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Never stop dreaming - Freddie Kruger
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A traditional vaccine introduces a neutralised version of the virus (or more typically the antigens - the bits of the virus that can trigger an immune response) into your system and then your body, through trial and error, creates antibodies to attack the cardboard cutouts of the enemy that have been introduced.
The RNA vaccine, by comparison, delivers the instructions on how to build the antigens instead of the antigens themselves. It's not the instructions for the full virus, just fragments (eg the spike protein) that will trigger the necessary antibodies to be created to tackle the antigens. What the cells create are just pieces of junk, really. The assumption is these bits are totally harmless inside the body.
It's like you throw a bunch of blue prints into the workshop that creates proteins and hope that someone in the workshop picks up the instructions and starts building. We can do better, however, by throwing the instructions into the planning room of the cell's factory, instead of the factory floor (so to speak) to give it a better chance that someone will actually start building these pieces.
Basically there's a serious lack of oversight, resource allocation, accountability and focus going on in our cells. The minute you give them an interesting distraction they grab it and run with it.
Kinda like software developers I guess.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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