|
I was feeling a bit biblical this AM.
"Answer a fool according to his follie, lest he be wise in his own conceit."
I mean, really, if we ignored him and he left the site, who'd we have to laugh at on such a regular basis?
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
|
|
|
|
|
Good point. ...although fools rarely listen to anything that contradicts their reality.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
|
|
|
|
|
Yes, I have and the hospitals here have NOT had the problem. There was scaremongering at the beginning, but nothing since. Lots of pictures of hundreds of empty beds. *yawn*
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
|
|
|
|
|
Dude, the mortality rate from COVID in Europe or rest of the world is higher than in what it is in the US.
US has 2.9% mortality rate
REST: 3.3% mortality rate
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
|
|
|
|
|
It seems you're right, I stand corrected 
Netherlands 4.9%, Belgium 8.1%, UK 9%, Italy 11.2%... US only 2.8%.
I wonder what causes these differences.
But I'm pretty sure it's despite obesity and not because.
Part of it is average age, like Italy has lots of old folk where the US population is considerably younger on average.
And of course testing capacity, less testing is a higher mortality rate.
On the other hand, US accounts for about 21% of global deaths while only having 4.25% of the world population...
|
|
|
|
|
Find the figures that suits you best, and promote those as The One To Focus On.
Deaths per million population - Worldometers as of this morning:
USA: 647
Netherlands: 376
Belgium: 867
UK: 623
Italy: 595
Cases per million population:
USA: 23,037
Netherlands: 7,926
Belgium: 11,224
UK: 7,399
Italy: 5,383
So USA has far more cases, which is bad in isolation. But it gives you a big number to divide the death count by, giving a more favorable impression of the mortality rate.
Deaths divided by cases (as of Worldometers figures today):
USA: 2.8%
Netherlands: 4.7%
Belgium: 7.7%
UK: 8.4%
Italy: 11%
We can stop there. But hold on a second... This assumes that all covid cases are detected in the countries we look at - or at least that the percentage of cases detected is reasonable similar. You detect cases by testing.
Tests per million population:
USA: 336,253
Netherlands: 142,875
Belgium: 293,269
UK: 368,471
Italy: 194,977
So USA has tested 135% more than the Netherlands, 15% more than Belgium, actually 9% less than UK, and 72% more than Italy. It was suggested to reduce the amount of testing, to keep the case sount down - if that logic holds water, we might assume that there are in fact lots of unreported cases, especally in the Netherlands and Italy. The divisor in the "Deaths / cases" calculation may in fact be significantly higher, bringing the mortailty rate significantly down, for these countries.
Whether or not this "correction" should be applied also depends on what qualifies you for being tested, which is not necessarily the same in all countries. Some places, anyone who wants to, whether having symptoms or not, are tested. In other countries (especially in the early stages of the spreading of the virus), testing was - due to limited capacity - restricted to those in the "high risk groups" and those showing symptoms. Or, if you in one area (city, state) have a large outbreak, you may start widespread testing there, leaving other areas less tested. All such differences strongly affect how many covid cases are discovered, and how many go unregistred.
So let us see how effective the testing is, looking at number of cases detected per test:
USA: 0.068
Netherlands: 0.018
Belgium: 0.026
UK: 0.050
Italy: 0.036
On possible observation from this is that USA is a lot better at "finding" covid cases, bringing up the case count (i.e. the divisor in the mortality calculation). It could be that there are just as many cases in other countries, but many of them go undetected, because the symptoms were mild so they never tested, and the "wrong" people were tested instead.
There are so many numbers for us to juggle, and so large variations in national conditions (and they have changed a lot since March, at different rate in different countries) that you will always be able to find figures to support your case. Comparing figures from different countries without being aware of (/pointing out) national differences that may affect your figures makes them next to worthless (except for rhetorical use).
If it suits your case, you may even dispute the detath figures, which is probably the most absolute and objective fact among all those figures you will find.
|
|
|
|
|
And if all else fails I'll just say I don't trust our governments.
My government boosts the numbers to make us scared and keep us in check.
Your government reports less numbers to look better.
Now try and fact check that! 
I'm joking, but there are plenty of people who do exactly this and they're not 
trønderen wrote: There are so many numbers for us to juggle, and so large variations in national conditions (and they have changed a lot since March, at different rate in different countries) that you will always be able to find figures to support your case.
Completely agree there!
|
|
|
|
|
ZurdoDev wrote: Does the US have a different version of Covid than Europe?
Short answer, No.
Slightly longer answer, Last time I checked there were about 80000 different versions of the virus, which makes it slowly evolving. Yes, slowly.
They are all pretty well spread around the world, and the difference in virulence isn't that big.
There are four Coronaviruses around since before that infect humans that gives us the common cold. (out of >200 viruses).
Three of those are likely to give us at least partial immunity to Covid-19.
Note that immunity doesn't mean that you don't get infected or sick, it means our immune system is prepared in advance to fight it.
So instead of getting violently sick a la the flu, you "just" get a cold, or don't notice much at all if you're lucky.
In the first wave this spring, those that got less symptoms mostly didn't get tested, tests were scarce and much more expensive then, so they're not not included in the statistics.
And that's the major difference I believe.
Also, keeping better distance and also using masks means the probability of breathing in droplets with viruses is lowered as well as making the droplets as such smaller.
And the lower the virus load, the more time our immune systems have to adapt to the virus.
We're also better prepared now, and better at protecting those that are at risk.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Never stop dreaming - Freddie Kruger
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks. Interesting points. 
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
|
|
|
|
|
ZurdoDev wrote: Does the US have a different version of Covid than Europe?
Coronavirus is the virus, covid is the name of the disease you get if infected. The original strain of corona has almost died out, what is around now are mutations of the original strain and Europe and the US do have their own most common strains, but I don't think there is much of a difference between them.
|
|
|
|
|
You're simply ignoring everyone with weakened immune systems. Selective comprehension.
And some people take up to 4 or more months to die ... in and out of the "recovery" room.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
|
|
|
|
|
Hit a nerve, did I?
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
|
|
|
|
|
The "global" mortality rate is 1 million vs 34 million infected; or "3%" (like the US of A)
Since some countries are running almost "0 %", someone else is taking up the slack.
So when someone says "there isn't a problem", they're only thinking of their little bubble.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
|
|
|
|
|
Gerry Schmitz wrote: So when someone says "there isn't a problem"
I'm not sure what extra stuff you're reading into what I posted, but I never said there is no problem.
However, the problem has been tiny in my experiences and I admitted that it didn't prove anything on a global scale.
Not sure what you're trying to get at.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
|
|
|
|
|
I failed to see the point of the "tiny experiences". Like saying: I've never had a car accident so what's the big deal. My beef is with anything that makes others complacent and do less thinking.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
|
|
|
|
|
Gerry Schmitz wrote: "tiny experiences".
Every experience is a tiny experience so I guess no one should ever share anything again? 
Gerry Schmitz wrote: I've never had a car accident so what's the big deal.
No, it's not. I specifically said I did get Covid and many others did.
Gerry Schmitz wrote: My beef is with anything that makes others complacent and do less thinking.
Then you have a beef with both sides of this issue.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Cool, thanks. 
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
|
|
|
|
|
There's a few things going on here.
First, the latest CDC figures (Sep 30) show that 99.999% of people under the age of 75 will recover. Over that age the recovery rate drops to between 92 and 93%. The CDC currently shows a US life expectancy of 78.6 years.
Second, just because you test positive doesn't mean you're going to get sick. Early "whole population" studies of this virus in Italy and Iceland showed that anywhere from 50 to 75% of the people who are infected will never show any symptoms - their bodies develop the antibodies and deal with it before it becomes numerous enough to cause problems.
Third, when it comes to the media, blood, fear, and scandal sell. Our media uses incomplete reporting to spread fear about this virus in order to sell. By incomplete reporting, the headline/story will read "x number of people are testing positive" but they'll never tell you how many actually got sick, nor of those who get sick how many require hospitalizations.
Fourth, the vast majority of our politicians operate on the concept of never let a good crisis go to waste to increase personal power.
Look at media reports on this virus through the above lenses and you'll see a completely different picture from what's being foisted on the public.
|
|
|
|
|
If there were a "weaker" US strain of the corona virus...
Go to Coronavirus Update - Worldometer[^] - one of the sites that has gained a lot of reputation lately. Scroll down to the 'Reported cases' table. Click on the the header of the "Deaths / 1M pop" column to sort it on that property. Look at which countries are at the top of the list.
A few countries shot like a rocket to the top in spring, partially because it wasn't clear how serious the situation was, and which precautions are necessary. Later, the growth in deaths/1M in some of these countries have been far slower.
Some list top countries have health facilities far below Europe/US level, and a social structure that makes it difficult to enforce protective measures. Note that several top entries most likely have the US "weaker strain" of the virus, yet topping the Deaths/1M list.
Then: The country claiming to have the best medical system, the best hospitals, the best doctors in the world: #10 on the list today, and climbing. Not long ago, it was #14, but has passed UK, Italy, Sweden... Those ahead of it include Ecuador (which may soon be overtaken), Chile, Brazil, Bolivia, Peru, ...
If the US strain is weaker, and the US health system is better than anywhere else, why then does the corona virus kill far more people in the US than in the great majority of European countries, as well as in most other countries?
One essential element is lifestyle. "I am free - I have a right to be infected". Obviously, that is only one element. But it is part of the problem.
You may argue that "It would be even worse if we had the more aggressive European strain of the virus". Today, the US has 13 times as many deaths per million as my country. Maybe, with the European strain the US death count per million would be 20 times as high, or 30 times as high as in my country. In spite of the best hospitals in the world, the best doctors, the best testing... If the US strain is weaker, I guess US guys should be really happy that they didn't get anything more aggressive!
|
|
|
|
|
trønderen wrote: why then does the corona virus kill far more people in the US
I don't know that it does. The CDC gave statistics that only 6% of those "killed by Covid" died exclusively because of Covid. The other 94% had other conditions. For some extreme examples, gunshot victims, cancer victims, heart attacks, people that are actually still alive, have all been part of the "killed by Covid" numbers.
So, frankly, the numbers mean nothing. They can't be trusted.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
|
|
|
|
|
Sure. Like that overweight senior citizen with diabetes and too high cholesterol levels are killed by a burglar, it is not the burglar's fault, because the victim wouldn't have been living very much longer anyway.
I am perfectly fine with that sort of argumentation, as long as we use the same kind of argumentation in all similar cases. Or have good arguments for why those other cases are not 'similar'.
|
|
|
|
|
trønderen wrote: Like that overweight senior citizen with diabetes and too high cholesterol levels are killed by a burglar, it is not the burglar's fault, because the victim wouldn't have been living very much longer anyway.
That analogy does not work.
When someone is shot and killed but had covid it gets reported as death by covid. When someone is in the hospital dying of cancer but then pick up covid while there, they did not die of covid.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
|
|
|
|
|
What ZurdoDev is referring to is the policy to count car accident victims, for example, as having died from covid if they have the virus in their system at the time dying from the car accident.
Same with heart attack victims, cancer victims, etc who died from something other than the virus are counted as covid deaths if they have the virus in their system.
I don't know how much that skews the numbers, but it does make one wonder...
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
|
|
|
|
|
Riiiight ... they're looking for co-virus in someone with a smashed head from a car accident.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
|
|
|
|
|
General 
News 
Suggestion 
Question 
Bug 
Answer 
Joke 
Praise 
Rant 
Admin 
Submit an article or tip
