The Lounge - CodeProject

Caslen5-Aug-20 8:52

5-Aug-20 8:52

A long time ago I read somewhere that when writing software it takes 95% of the forecast time to do 95% of the work and another 95% of the forecast time to do the remaining 5% work. Whenever the PM insists for estimates on task duration I make a generous estimate and double it.

Re: The Power of No

Nelek5-Aug-20 10:25

Nelek

5-Aug-20 10:25

Back in the day I did mine with factor 1,5 if I had a really good project description and I did my own chats with the customers. A 2,5 or even a 3 when I had bad specs or no first hand information.
My boss still added a 50% more, so he could bargain with the customer up to 25% down and still have his own buffer.

M.D.V.

If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.

Re: The Power of No

ISanti5-Aug-20 23:57

ISanti

5-Aug-20 23:57

Male ego? I think it would be better to write "ego" without a qualifier.

Sorry for my bad English

Re: The Power of No

Moreno Airoldi6-Aug-20 0:43

Moreno Airoldi

6-Aug-20 0:43

I've always been a fan of saying "no" when it's needed. As long as it's done the proper way, I find it only helps with planning and actually improves your professional image in the eye of your counterpart.

Well, managers are often an exception to that rule, alas! Laugh | :laugh:

A few years ago I had a particularly funny (though it was NOT funny for me at the time!) eexperience: a big client's PM called me to discuss the schedule of a rather big project. She sent me the whole planning and we went through all the deadlines and discussed in detail all activities. In the end, it was a demanding schedule, but not impossible. I was positively surprised, and agreed that it was doable.

That's when I commented on a date for a meeting: I was not available on that specific day. She told me to ignore the dates on the schedule... I said "what?". She said yeah of course the schedule was about the time it would take to complete the project, but the date on the schedule were all off: the project would start the next day instead of the next month...

Let's just say that I answered with something more... articulate than a simple "no" Laugh | :laugh:

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but not in practice. - Anonymous

A computer is a stupid machine with the ability to do incredibly smart things, while computer programmers are smart people with the ability to do incredibly stupid things. They are, in short, a perfect match. - B. Bryson

Re: The Power of No

agolddog6-Aug-20 3:27

agolddog

6-Aug-20 3:27

I never understood why people are so tied up in dates. Understanding dependencies is better for everyone, and just simpler.

"Here are the things we need to happen before X. Whenever those things are in line, we can start work on X."

You know, the basics of iterative development.

It's even o.k. to give a rough timeframe for X (assuming it's reasonably well-defined, or the business people understand and buy into it being rough). But that doesn't define a date from now, it (roughly) defines a date from start of X.

Good luck, Marc.

Re: The Power of No

Steve Naidamast6-Aug-20 3:59

Steve Naidamast

6-Aug-20 3:59

After 42+ years of working in corporate development both as an employee and a consultant, I retired.

It wasn't the changing technologies but simply the fact that I couldn't work for assholes any longer...

Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outklook.com

Re: The Power of No

Matt McGuire6-Aug-20 5:09

Matt McGuire

6-Aug-20 5:09

Same here. we had a PM pushed on us recently, and wanted break downs for every step on every project with completion dates for each step. That was a solid no from us also. there are just two of us devs at our community college, not only do we have daily tickets, a backlog of apps to fix, upgrade, or create we also now have a new data store/schema coming from the state that we have to migrate to in the next year.

With everyone working from home, i understand they want some sort of metric on our day to day to make sure things are getting done, but this is not the way. things change too much from day to day. like the other day I got everything cleared away to get back to working on an upgraded app; 2 hours in everything got derailed when an emergency came in that used up the rest of the day.

I've been told in the past (different PM), if you know how long it takes to put a button on the screen you can estimate how long to do everything else. WTF | :WTF:

everyone who has actually done software development, can give educated guesses like that feature might take 3-4 days, but actually takes 1 day or 1 week, but don't hold me to the educated guesses especially when other things popup. Same PM told me all programming is simple; it's just 'click,click,click' WTF | :WTF:

I've been doing Dev work for over 20 years now and have not missed a deadline yet, and all without any PM. PM's should be there to organize information and keep all parties updated, and a source to dig up information needed, but please putting a measurement on dev's productivity with dates is dumb, might as well go back to KLOC measurements, absolutely meaningless, since I could say that feature will be done in 6 months finish it off in 3 hours and take the rest of the time off.

Re: The Power of No

Shmoken996-Aug-20 9:28

Shmoken99

6-Aug-20 9:28

Aaaand another developer is labelled a Prima Donna that is hard to work with. Heavy sigh.

Ok, yes, you should say, "No" sometimes. As a developer that wants to be helpful and driven by a sense of purpose, it is hard to say, "No". I've erred more on the optimistic side by saying, "Yes" and then having to work heroically (ie late nights and weekends) to meet my commitments. Chalk that up to experience.

Instead of simply a one word answer that is perfectly realistic but not helpful, why not follow up with what you CAN do? Then list all your risks and unknowns so that the PM and the rest of the team can track them, revisit them each week until the risk is dealt with or the unknowns become known. If your worst fears are realized then you look like a prescient genius. If not, no one will bother to remember.

A good PM will not simply manage the schedule but will also manage the risks and unknowns. The PM will help to develop contingency plans, re-negotiate the schedule and resources, and escalate issues that are blocking you or other team members to keep the project on track so you can focus on the technical issues. The PM can only succeed if he/she has good info to manage the project and depends on the technical folks for that information.

A bad PM will only manage the schedule and hold everyone to the earliest date ever uttered by anyone at any time based on any assumptions. So, document your risks and unknowns along the way for the post mortem, err, uhh, retrospective.

Keep your friends close and your PM closer. Smile | :)

Re: The Power of No

Richard MacCutchan6-Aug-20 9:33

Richard MacCutchan

6-Aug-20 9:33

Shmoken99 wrote:
A good PM

I never met a single one in 40 years of IT. Admittedly a couple were not that bad.

Today. Listen up!

theoldfool5-Aug-20 1:19

theoldfool

5-Aug-20 1:19

Today in 1858: The first Transatlantic Telegraph Cable was Completed.
And then there was communication, but still no TCP/IP.

If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.

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