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Sander Rossel wrote: Sitting at home isn't the answer, especially not for longer periods of time.
Does it strike you that we seriously argue that locking people up, denying them any sort of freedom of movement, is exactly what will cure criminals, make them into better humans?
Why is it so that what is truly beneficial for one group of people (i.e. those who have broken the law) but highly devastating to others (i.e. us)? (If the assumption is correct, of course.)
Could it be that the confinement we experience is not strong enough, it should limit our movement to a single room, maybe without any communication facilities?
Or is it because we haven't committed any crime, that we would indeed benefit from the confinement if we first went out to do some nasty crime?
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I don't think locking people up will cure criminal intents and I also don't believe it's good for them.
It is meant as punishment and hopefully they will feel so severely punished that they won't do it again.
At least it should give them time to think about what they did and why it was wrong.
If anything, locking up criminals should benefit society because at least one criminal can't do any more harm.
On a side note, study showed that getting a girlfriend/wife and kids are far more effective for "curing" criminality than jail.
Also, it's not the same.
A criminal in jail does not have the stress of providing for his family or going to work.
I mean, he may have (for his family at least, his job is surely gone), but he literally and very surely can't.
We still have jobs and houses and families and everything, but we aren't allowed to work and we don't know if our work will still be there in a month.
The consequence could be that we lose all of it, while an inmate has already lost.
Also, criminals aren't necessarily socially isolated while a lot of us currently are.
No, truly eradicating criminality (if such a thing is even possible) could be gained from good education for everyone and eradicating poverty and inequality.
Of course you would keep those criminals who do it for the adrenaline.
Unfortunately, people are inherently unequal in that some are more healthy or beautiful or smarter than others.
We also have varying interests, some could gain you a lot of money (like if your interest was programming) while others only cost you money (like collecting).
Also, crime pays, a street value of a gram of cocaine in the USA was $96 in 2017.
A few grams is a lot of (easy) money!
Also, the chances of getting away with stealing are pretty high if you don't get caught red-handed.
Anyway, my point, your comparison of criminals in jail and "good" people in isolation doesn't seem to hold up.
Neither does your thesis of "locking up people cures them of criminal intent".
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Sander Rossel wrote: Neither does your thesis of "locking up people cures them of criminal intent".
So what did you mean when you wrote:
It is meant as punishment and hopefully they will feel so severely punished that they won't do it again. Are you saying that they still have the criminal intent, yet stopping their criminal acts?
Most statistics show that prison is the best place to learn, in case you want to continue your criminal actions. Especially with young people, throw them in jail for a small crime, and they will come back to jail quite quickly after release, but for a more serious crime. They will climb up the ladder to ever more serious crimes.
Prison essentially serves our demand for retaliaton: We wish to hurt, to injure, to harm the person we throw into the dungeon. Claiming that we do it to keep him away from future crimes is just an excuse to make it look like we are doing a good deed by our hurting, injury and harm.
It seems quite obvious that if we, the population as a whole, had a choice between curing a criminal 100% for his criminal dispositions, with no sort of hurting, injury or harm to serve as retailiation, or to stimulate his criminal inclination but having the joy of retaliation, we would choose the latter. That is in fact what we have been constantly doing in the entire Western world for several centuries. Very few stand up for the other alternative. It is not that we don't want do "cure" him - but you are not seriously suggesting that he shall not be punished, are you?? If he has done something wrong, he must be punished! After we have inflicted pain, injury and harm, he can learn to behave, but we are not going to accept that he is not punished hard first!
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Member 7989122 wrote: Are you saying that they still have the criminal intent, yet stopping their criminal acts?
I do not 
Member 7989122 wrote: Especially with young people, throw them in jail for a small crime, and they will come back to jail quite quickly after release, but for a more serious crime.
Of course, they say you are the average of the five people you hang out with the most.
So as a rebellious youngster you hang out with some bad boys and you still have some good friends or class mates, so you average out as someone who steals a pack of gum.
You get caught and are thrown in jail where pretty much everyone is badder than you and you are forced to hang out with them so now you average out as someone who would steal a car and beat up the owner in the process.
If you're very lucky you get in contact with some dealers and now you can deal drugs with your newly stolen car 
I agree with you on every account, but I really don't see how any of this is still COVID-19 related though, unless you're talking about going in simply for being outside during COVID-19 and coming out as a violent gang member
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I guess it helps to understand the origin of imprisonment was as an alternative to corporeal punishment.
In the old times punishment was immediate and corporeal to act as a discouragement and deter people from doing crimes, on the basis that if you got caught you ended up flogged or in the pillory. (or worse)
In those times prisons were only used as storage for rich people that either were in debt or that they tried to get a ransom for.
It was during the enlightenment that the idea of corporeal punishment being inhuman took root. And the idea of an alternative was to give criminals time to consider their crimes in solitude with god would create better citizens.
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That idea has failed to manifest in real life.
Especially today. In the old days of corporal punishment, when you had taken it, you had paid you dues to society, and you were entitled to be treated as a man that had no social debt. I guess there are many cases where is wasn't perfectly so, but in today's society it becomes stronger every year that any sentence will follow you for the rest of your life, no matter how much you have paid for it by years in prison. Your neighbourhood demands to know what you did wrong as a teenager and take their precautions against you. Potential employers demand to know everything about your past. Meetooers want to ruin the rest for your life for 35 years ago having looked at a girl in a way they do not approve of today. An increasing number of criminals receive the maximum sentence that the law allows, but in addition, they are to be kept "in custody" for another number of years "to protect society against them". Formally, it isn't a prison sentence, yet "in custody" means "in a prison cell", and it is unbound: You know when your prison sentence ends, but when the period of custody ends, it may be reconsidered and extended for as long as the court pleases. It isn't a prison sentence, so it isn't limited by the laws. You are just put into a prison cell to protect society against you...
I think this is the ultimate proof that a sentence to prison is no sort of cure whatsoever for criminal inclinations.
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Sander Rossel wrote: Is this a free country or what!?
Of course it is (according to the normal definition of "free"). However, you still have strict rules (as do most countries) that most of us accept as necessary for the benefit of all. For example, there are rules regarding driving on a particular side of the road. They clearly limit the freedom of people who wish to drive on the other side, perhaps simply to get past a long queue that inconveniences them. Not many people would argue that those rules are unreasonable.
My point is that some rules are necessary and acceptable even if they sometimes seem arbitrary and restrictive. There will always be some measure of disagreement about where the line should be drawn between total freedom and necessary restriction. We need to be careful about claiming that some are just wrong because they don't meet our judgement about where the line should be drawn.
Phil
The opinions expressed in this post are not necessarily those of the author, especially if you find them impolite, inaccurate or inflammatory.
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Yeah, I'm not attacking having rules, but telling people they cannot go outside and giving them such ridiculous fines crosses a line.
Urging people to stay inside, fine.
Urging people not to visit friends and relatives, fine.
Bugging people about why they're outside when they're outside and urging them to go home, still fine.
Trespassing a private residence and giving out fines because a car is parked out front and you can see visitors through the window, crossing a line.
Giving out fines that people have to work months for to pay because they're cutting someone's hair who has agreed to that, crossing a line.
Allowing people to live together, but then giving them a fine when they go outside together, not only ridiculous, but also crossing a line.
Giving people a criminal record for being outside or visiting relatives, crossing that line like there is none!
It may be difficult to draw the line, but our government is certainly crossing it and we can only wonder if it's still for "the greater good".
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Ah simulations - like climate change. Let's take a very complex situation, put it on the internet, and further stampede the masses.
I recommend this: NUKEMAP by Alex Wellerstein[^]
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Smoking Meth and posting bible verses on Facebook does not make you a Methodist!
When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know.
But if you listen, you may learn something new.
--Dalai Lama
JaxCoder.com
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... jutht methed up?
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994. So does this signature. me, 2012
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Be nasty to a woman, defending it with bible verses, could make her a Metoodist.
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... it's old, but so appropriate: Social distance bar fight[^]
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Never seen that before but it is hilarious, thanks for pointing it out.
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Read the title, saw the link to YouTube, went in expecting to see a Shatner fight scene...
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"Relevance is not Relevant"
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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is this where I can disagree?
pestilence [ pes-tl-uh ns ] noun
1. a deadly or virulent epidemic disease. especially bubonic plague.
2. something that is considered harmful, destructive, or evil.
Synonyms: pest, plague, CCP
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Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute disagreement, or the full half hour?
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Quite a revaluation!
When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know.
But if you listen, you may learn something new.
--Dalai Lama
JaxCoder.com
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She hasn't realized what I've done yet, but the thyme is cumin.
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Drop her a card - a mom appreciates the warning. But you're a sage bloke, sesame - you'll know that already.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Or as Dylan would say..."The Thymes they are a changin"
When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know.
But if you listen, you may learn something new.
--Dalai Lama
JaxCoder.com
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I fell too often for that; it's hard to see if someone salted your sugar.
Salty coffee in the morning. Salty whipped cream once.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Wow.
I would never have mustard the curryage... 
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Hah! I did that three weeks ago[^]! 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
Mark Twain
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