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Dean Roddey wrote: 4. Containertainers. Managing all of your containers and their options is now becoming a serious challenge to many companies. Containertainers are containers for your containers and their configuration operations, simplifying your container deployment and management process. Work is already under way on Containertainertainer technology, in anticipation of projected containertainer deployment growth.
I'd call these 'shelves' and 'paint pots'
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Absoultely let's do things the modern way, where we have 10 layers of boilerplate to write/use before we can do anything:
View
Controller
Interface for the controller
Orchestrator
Interface for the orchestrator
Repository
Interface for the repository
Model
Interface for database access
Client for database access
I feel sorry for the young'uns nowadays having to learn this mess.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Ah, the onion... lots of layers and tears!
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I'm trying to complete the "order" to receive my money for the Slack competition, and I keep getting
"We're experiencing technical difficulties
We're sorry for the inconvenience."
For days now.
Latest Article - Azure Function - Compute Pi Stress Test
Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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slack: adj.loose, baggy; inactive
Maybe they still wanna win?
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I can lend you a fiver, if you're short.
i.e. if you're tall enough to go on all the rides, forget it!
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I think it is, for the most part. His whining about compile times is understandable because most people don't seem to know how to write header files with that in mind. PIMPL being not used enough is another cause.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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Sure, I can't use either 
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Modern C++ is very complex and the bulk of people who use it probably don't understand half of the details.
It's vastly over-templated. It's not really possible to keep build times low when you have enormous amounts of templated code in a large code base because all that code is inlined.
A lot of folks in the 'modern' camp seem to have convinced themselves that inheritance is evil, and will jump through fairly ridiculous hoops not to use it, using horrendously ugly stuff like the standard variant stuff and basically doing what OO was invented to avoid (lots of switch statements everywhere, and standard variant is just a particularly ugly switch statement.)
A huge amount of effort was spent creating a seriously over-engineered container system, while leaving fundamental stuff not dealt with, and leaving C++ in a situation where even now you can't write even a modest practical application without third party libraries.
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Well.. C++ multiple inheritance is always full of surprise, isn't it?! 
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Dean Roddey wrote: you can't write even a modest practical application without third party libraries.
I respectfully disagree. I've written several useful utilities using "pure" C++ (and the standard library.) Adding third party libraries make it even more rich, as it does with every language, including Python.
I'm now working on a server which uses asio, rapidJson, OpenSSL and LZ4 and SQLite. However, the majority of the code is "straight" C++.
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I'm not sure I'd consider a utility to be a practical end user type application. Anyhoo, it's at a significant disadvantage relative to languages like C# or Java that have far more built in functionality. And it's far less likely that your experience working on project A will apply to project B when you move to another company.
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Dean Roddey wrote: And it's far less likely that your experience working on project A will apply to project B when you move to another company.
Quite to the contrary. My C++ experience has transferred extremely well through the recent years and multiple contracts/short term jobs. In my most recent project, I easily cut months (no exaggeration) off the development time because of this.
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Dean Roddey wrote: I'm not sure I'd consider a utility to be a practical end user type application.
I'll let my users know
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Dean Roddey wrote: while leaving fundamental stuff not dealt with
Like what?
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Language-wise decent enumerations would be a big one IMO. Otherwise, a vast swath of functionality that things like C# has built in that are important to most practical applications. Sockets, text transcoding, loadable resources, XML, JSON, HTTP, MVC, graphic file formats, image manipulation, a good streaming system, RPC of some number of types, and on and on.
Look, don't get me wrong, I probably have 10 times the vested interest in C++ than all of you put together. But as it stands right now, it's got problems.
I know what it's like to work in a C++ system with all those things and much, much more since I've created one. That's what C++ should be like by now.
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Dean Roddey wrote: a vast swath of functionality that things like C# has built in
were written in C++.
What's your point?
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Well, part of my point is that your point would be a lot more interesting if you could USE that code in C++, which you can't, so it's sort of a moot point.
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Do you want to use .Net in Assembly too?
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Well, I take your point - reuse is good. Having a complete library is good.
But we are primitive monkeys. We compete with OS's. We compete with API's. We compete with whatever's on the browsers' default.
I don't want a language that does everything.
I want a language that can do everything.
When you come up with something better than C++ lemme know.
Cheers
T
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Better is subjective, but the thing is that being better is not really enough anyway. You have to have a corpus of available and experienced developers who know the language and others who don't but yet who are willing to invest significant parts of their career development on it, which it might ultimately be of no value to them relative to learning other things. Chicken and egg and all that.
Some folks would argue that Rust is a better language. From my semi-gross level scan I don't agree, at least as a very general purpose language, but some people obviously do think so. But will it ever be more than a niche language? The odds are against it, and it probably has more advantages than most new languages by far (being backed by a large organization that's not seen as having greedy or insular motivations.)
And how many developers out there right now are experts at Rust if you wanted to hire up and start a big project? It seems to me that Rust could remain caught between Java/C# on one side and C++ on the other, without there ever being a big enough incentive for large numbers of people from either camp to move to the middle.
These days it seems that there's almost no friction when it comes to introducing yet another UI framework or module manager or web app framework, but huge friction on the big ticket items.
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Dean Roddey wrote: These days it seems that there's almost no friction when it comes to introducing yet another UI framework or module manager or web app framework,...
Amen brother.
Dean Roddey wrote: ...but huge friction on the big ticket items.
I guess I'm part of the problem - C/C++ is all I got, and I probably use/understand a tenth of it. But it's got C, and that, to my feeble mind, keeps it close to the bits that sometimes get overclocked. I like that.
Can't presume to add anything to the 'what we need' discussion, save to say less might be more.
Carry on
T
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I tend to agree with you on your assessments, though I am not all that familiar with the C++ language in depth.
many years ago when dinosaurs were still considered big pets, I met a senior C++ engineer and had a very nice discussion with him. He had been coding in C++ for over 25 years and he told that the majority of issues with C\C++ development come from the fact that the majority of developers using this language really did not understand the language in depth; hence the many issues with C++ applications.
He went on to say that do quality C\C++ development you really have to spend a lot of time understanding how the internals work...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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That can be true. Of course you don't have to use any of the 'modern' bits if you don't want, at least you don't if you are willing to roll your own. If you use third party libraries you are forced to use whatever hodgepodge of features that the libraries you use choose to implement, to some degree anyway.
But C++ had all the capabilities you really NEEDED a decade plus ago. There have been some useful things that are not burdensome added since then, and I make use of those, but it's not like you couldn't do really high quality, large scale code with C++ in the 2000s.
To me, things that increase compile time safety (where that doesn't mean over-templating) are all useful things. Override, method default, method delete, and [nodiscard] are simple to use, don't introduce overhead or complexity, and allow the compiler to watch your back day after day.
Lambdas if not abused can get rid of a class of complexities because of their ability to be capturing. But, you can't pass capturing lambdas to function pointer parameters. So you are forced to use generic templated parameters, which gets you into the massive silliness that is so much part of modern C++, the 'one error generates a million barely comprehensible errors' thing.
Stuff like RAII and smart pointers (which I call janitors because the concept really goes way beyond RAII) has always been around. One thing that amuses me is how 'modern C++' people somehow think putting everything in a smart pointer is somehow magically making their code safe. Often it is just moving the dangers to other realms, which are just as hard to see (maybe more so sometimes), and just as silently deadly (maybe even more so sometimes.)
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