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True, but that does not mean that they should be expected to regularly work more than a normal workday without remuneration. Being a professional is not equivalent to being a slave!
If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack.
--Winston Churchill
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As far as I know work is all about trading time for money.
The worth of your time is measured in knowledge and skills.
If I work more I expect to get more salary.
And because I know quite a bit I expect to get paid a minimum amount of money per hour.
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FWIW, I am also based in the UK..
I think it depends on the company really.. did they invite people from outside the company? Personally, I can see the fun in getting together to challenge each other at coding tasks. If the company's looking over your shoulder recording everything you're doing then that's something else..
richp669 wrote: There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure, so why is this encouraged in software?
To answer that one, I code for pleasure. It's my job, but it's what I love too.. have done for 36 years, and it's difficult to imagine a time when I don't code. If I get to meet like-minded people, even better..
richp669 wrote: I had friends that are builders, plumbers, bin-men, train drivers, airplane technicians, shop workers and bankers (yup wide circle) - none of these are asked to perform their day job in their spare time for no reward - so what's the crack?
That's exactly why we chose what we do, we can do it any time we like and create what we like. Family is important too, I agree.. I spend a lot of time with mine and do other things apart from coding, but I still find time for coding outside work too because I enjoy it.
If you don't really enjoy it, maybe there's a deeper issue..? 
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
modified 31-Aug-21 21:01pm.
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There may be a deeper issue, as over the summer I really just felt like being a dev (which I love doing), was being a chore, not a joy.
However, a new horizon opened up and I took it (to the detriment of the W/F/L balance).
Still: 1) may off mortgage, 2) get rid of kids, 3) retire to carribean island...
I life to dream 
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richp669 wrote: I really just felt like being a dev (which I love doing), was being a chore, not a joy
I felt like that 8 years ago before I decided to become a contractor. It's much more enjoyable being able to move about onto different projects and working with different people all the time (although having said that, I've been in my current contract for just over 2 years ).
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
modified 31-Aug-21 21:01pm.
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Brent Jenkins wrote: If the company's looking over your shoulder recording everything you're doing then that's something else..
They don't have too... everything you create using their resources is already their property.
Yes.. that includes you creating a private project in spare time at home just using their laptop
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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If it's an informal meet up (dare I say it, "a bit of fun"!?) then common sense should prevail.
Nelek wrote: reating a private project in spare time at home just using their laptop
..with their purchased software of course?
Seriously, you should have your own equipment for private projects.
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
modified 31-Aug-21 21:01pm.
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That does not matter. It's a legal problem. What if you write something for them and later claim to have done this at home? That's why they try to disown you of anything you produce, no matter when, where or with what tools you have done that.
If any boss would ever try that with me, I'm going to make sure that he gets more than he bargained for. It would be like him personally wheeling the Trojan Horse into his own city. He wanted all my work, so he's going to get it.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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CDP1802 wrote: What if you write something for them and later claim to have done this at home?
If your home project is fundamentally the same as what your employer/client is doing, then yes you're asking for trouble.
If you're project is something completely different, written with your own hardware and software in your own time, then they have no rights over it.
Having said that, your employer/client can try and put something in your contract to say otherwise, but you're a fool if you sign a contract that claims IPR over everything and anything you do.
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
modified 31-Aug-21 21:01pm.
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Brent Jenkins wrote: If you're project is something completely different, written with your own hardware and software in your own time, then they have no rights over it.
That's what everybody thinks, but that's not how it's usually handled. Take a look at your contract. Are you sure that everything means exactly what you think it means? You would not be the first who's in for a little surprise in court.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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In addition they usually have more money to pay for better lawyers...
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Winning by greater endurance.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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CDP1802 wrote: Take a look at your contract. Are you sure that everything means exactly what you think it means?
As a contractor I check my contracts pretty thoroughly. If there's any doubt over anything (especially IPR) I get written confirmation from the client beforehand. Otherwise it's a no-go.
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
modified 31-Aug-21 21:01pm.
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The laws vary from country to country, or even locally, but perhaps you should read this.[^] Even if you are absolutely innocent, it may still be a fight to prove that in court.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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Quote: 1. I have done transactional work and litigation in and about these areas for nearly 30 years in Silicon Valley. Based on that experience, in practical terms, the risk you deal with in doing side work boils down to this: it is rare that an employer will make a claim to IP you develop on your own time and using your own resources but, when it does happen, its effect is pretty horrific.
2. California gives you more scope only because it has a law on the books that generally prohibits employers, on public policy grounds, from making claims to IP generated by employees working on their own time and using their own resources.
3. Even in California, however, an employee owes duties to his employer and one of those is that you don't misappropriate your employer's IP for your own use. This is why the California law says that you don't keep your side-project IP for yourself if it is in your employer's line of business or anticipated line of business. You can imagine the chaos that would result if any employee could state that, "no, that valuable IP that I came up with might have directly concerned what my employer was paying me to develop, but, in fact, I developed that particular key piece on my own time, etc."
4. In this sense, there is a common sense element to this area of law as applied in California. You typically will sense, without being told, whether the work you are doing on the side is capitalizing on the things your employer is doing or if it is truly unrelated.
..all pretty sensible stuff.
As a contractor I am employed by my own company. Anything I do for my clients is theirs, anything else belongs to my company (provided I don't tread on my client's toes - that's just asking for trouble).
If a client contract says otherwise, I don't sign it. Even if you're a full time employee, you should read your contract carefully before you sign it and raise issues with anything you don't like.
If your (potential)employer won't accommodate your concerns, then look for another employer.
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
modified 31-Aug-21 21:01pm.
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Brent Jenkins wrote: If your (potential)employer won't accommodate your concerns, then look for another employer.
Best advice, if you already see it coming.
If not, it's good to have a convenient way out. In my case it would be my 'Padawan' who suddently, in a stroke of genius, did all the work. How do they want to prove that he did not do it?
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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I always refuse to have a laptop as that blurrs the work/family/life balance too far into their direction.
I even don't hand over my personal mobile number to work (I have a 2 sim phone for work/private).
All my side projects are done using my own hardware and "community" software dev tooling
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richp669 wrote: I was really peaved that someone would ask, and got a bit defensive (like us devs do).
Or.... just say, "No thanks, I'm not interested."
I say there are bigger problems to get upset about. Like Win10. It's popular to hate it right now so spend your time and energy doing that. 
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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So far I have had no problems with Win10 (other than work won't let me have it so I have to do the mobile side projects at home)...
Yes I am open to side projects, but not ones that the corporate will grab off me and use as their own!! 
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richp669 wrote: There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure
Porn star?
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richp669 wrote: There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure, so why is this encouraged in software?
You could start something there,
I would start by organizing something for doctors: line up non-essential operations (ingrown toenails, varicose veins, hips/knees ...), a "slashathon" - doctors get to brag their skills and speed, patients who normally wait years treated sooner.
Seriously though bosses should realise for some (if not most) people programming is a job, not every mechanic spends their weekend building super dream cars, not every builder adds bay windows to their own home, not every chef spends their days off creating new recipes - sure some do, most don't. (I know damn good mechanics that drive the lousiest cars, master builders that live in leaky drafty houses...)
As to hackathons, that's junior programmer sh*t. Tell the boss you are busy weekends: kids sports, helping the parents, church, hiking, bomb building...
Sin tack ear lol
Pressing the any key may be continuate
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Lopatir wrote: bomb building
Too crude.
"Sorry boss, can't come. I have one of the few slots at the shooting range to train with my AR-50."
Put one round on his desk.
"Ok, boss, why don't you let it go through your head for a while?"
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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richp669 wrote: There is no other industry where the employees do "homework"
Priests?
(Although they might have to attend the odd Heckathon)
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You seem quite miffed. I have been at several Hackathons at Ericsson, by no standards a small company. The purpose of those were never to produce direct financial value. It was to have fun, and maybe (with a bit of luck) learn something new. It did not have to be directly applicable knowledge in my regular job.
I did ask a colleague or two why they did not take part. I did that as one cool developer talking to another cool developer, and I was cool with whatever they told me.
Of course, if I had been asked by a manager [or "manager"] why I had skipped a hackathon that would've made me miffed too! But in that place it was all relaxed and pleasant.
... such stuff as dreams are made on
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Some of us also like to be able to sleep (or sleep comfortably and wash) and to eat decent food rather than poor quality pizza and drink energy drinks.
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